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204.149.80.6
I purchased a HK1400 integrated amp, which is very rare in the US, and considered by some to be a legendary amp in the UK, off ebay for $50! It seemed to be quite a deal and sounded very good (for HK).The power supply started emitting DC and the amp blew. Luckily my speakers were spared.
A local HK authorized repair shop, here in Central NJ to remain nameless, estimated the cost of repairs to be between $200-$250.
It hardly seems feasible to repair the amp at that cost? Please advise, the cost seems very high.
Thanks
Dennis
Follow Ups:
This number is nowhere big enough to be "astronomical." In fact, considering it is the repair of an older, used unit in overall unknown condition, I think it is a reasonable, quite down-to-earth estimate. Whether it is worth it to you is another question.Joe
.
HI All,
May I express thanks to all you who support the repair shop estimate. And also for your understanding of what it takes to keep a repair shop running. Thom clearly does not have a clue and, I suspect, does not care.I have run and owned two one man high end repair shops over the years. I closed the last one about 4 years ago and went back to my suspended electronics career in industry. I was tired of being broke. I charged $60 per hour and I had plenty of business (and regular customers). If I could have really charged $60 and hour for all the hours of the working day I would have done well. But you can't. The overhead of doing business including shop rent, insurance, utilities, bookeeping, sorting parts, washing the floor, keeping the computer running, chasing delinquent bills, etc., etc., keeps your chargable hours down and income down. Trying to make peace with people like Thom just wore me out.
Based on Thom's rather incoherent description of the problem I'd say the estimate is realistic. If he really means "power supply" then this description of the problem makes no sense because the job of a power supply is to put out DC.
If he means DC at the amps output then the estimate sounds good but it could go higher depending on the extent of the damage. You can only make an informed guess until you do some detailed troubleshooting.
Attitudes like Thom's is what drove me out of the business. Thank God there are many realistic, less greedy, appreciative customers out there. They were the ones that made going to work in the morning easy. But Thom's attitude is closer to the norm.
I can ssure you, Thom, that as repair shop owner I am not in the slightest bit concerned about saving your ass from a bad luck purchase. It's your loss and I'm not about to make it mine.
Sparky
Sparky,Look you are just bitter. Based on everyone's response I was leaning towards getting it fixed. But now with your attitude I'm leaning toward not getting it fixed. Perhaps your customer service skills weren't the greatest and it attributed towards your demise.
Think about it, before I go and spend $250 on the amp repair, I can spend $129 on a Trends 10.1 which would blow my HK out of the water. My decision whether or not to fix the amp has nothing to do with the technician from the well respected shop I went to.
And don't call me greedy an unappreciative. I buy all my equipment from local B&M stores and I'm all for supporting the little guy.
I was merely looking for an opinion. I wasn't looking to smear the technicians name.
So have fun doing whatever your doing now.
Regards,
Dennis
Dennis,No, I am quite sure Sparky is dead on. Bitter? doesn't sound like it to me. The shop where I was working regularly (notice the "was", it's been so slow the last 2 months there's almost no point in even going except once a week to see IF there's something to work on). Most places have a "diagnostic fee" or a "minimum service fee" that adds up to a half hour's labor cost, or around $30-40.
Does it take a half hour to find out what's wrong with something so it can be repaired? Only when you are REALLY lucky. In fact, it may be worth going and buying a lottery ticket the day it happens, because you're definitely on a roll!
For instance, if someone brings me a power amp that's "blowing fuses", do I stick a fuse back in there and throw the switch? That would be CRAZY. Step one, get continuity meter and check to see if in fact all or some of the fuses are blown (sometimes none of them are). If you find a blown fuse, step two is to figure out what that fuse protects. Main fuse? could be lots of things. Just one channel? make sure all the fuses for that channel are removed, power it up, and see if the other channel is good. Usually, you are keeping your fingers crossed that it is, because you can measure everything on the bad side, and compare it with the good side. But, before you declare a channel good, you have to take the meter and check to see if there is DC on the output. If there's a significant amount, and there are not huge coupling caps past the output transistors (assuming it's not tube), then both channels are effectively out. Step three? Completely disconnect, which at least means desolder, and sometimes remove totally, ALL the output transistors, on each bad channel. Draw diagram showing where each transistor came from, so you don't put one back in the wrong place. The "big amps" can have more than 6 pairs per side, 24 total or more. Step four? power the amp up, see if the fuses hold, check for signal and/or DC on the bases/gates of the output transistors. Signal good and no DC? you got lucky. Step five, check every output transistor for shorts/open junctions, HOPING that they are not MOSFETS, checking them reverse polarity also to make sure none are "leaking". Find a shorted or open transistor, but just one or two on each side? (by the way, suppose the amp came in at 9AM, wonder what time it is now?) Now, you could just replace the bad transistors, but you know that the others on that rail are probably stressed badly now, and it's better to change them all, because sending home a "ticking time bomb" is not going to be good if another one fails two days, or even two weeks or months later. Oh yes, before we call the owner with a repair estimate, we better check all the emitter resistors (assuming it has them) to make sure they are in spec, because a shorting transistor can cook one of those pretty quick. It would stink to put the whole amp back together, just to watch it go up in smoke again when you get to the testing phase.
next, you make a parts list to totall up what all is needed, hoping that the output transistors are cheap. $5.00 each (wholesale even) or more isn't uncommon, and if in fact it is safer to repalce say, all 24 in our ficticious amp, not counting emitter resistors, that's $120.00 just for parts! It just took you say, 3 hours (yeah right!, more like 4) to diagnose the problem, and you know replacing bad parts, reassembly, cleaning, and testing will take another 3 and a half hours (this isn't counting "burn in time" when we let it play to make sure everything's ok when it really gets warm). Hmmm, let me see, at $60 an hour labor, that comes to $450 labor, plus $120 parts, wow, we're up to $570! Now, you know the amp, even though it's nice, is only worth $200 at most, and so does the customer. Can you call with a $570 repair estimate? Duh, no way. Ok, blow off the almost 4 hours you already spent on it, where does that leave us? $330. Ok, that's not gonna work, Hmmm. Ok, charge for just 2 hours labor. Even though that's STILL $240, you call with the estimate.
Here's the part that really sucks . . . if the owner says "ok", you're going to work a total of 7 or more hours, but only get paid for two of them. Wait, you don't own the shop? Well, then you're not going to get all of that even. IF the owner says, "no", well, you just spent almost 4 hours on something that you are not going to get all of the $30 diagnostic fee for. Oh WAIT, the owner wants to come pick it up, and take it someplace else for a "second opinion". OK, better put it all back together, just like it was when it came in, which means resoldering, and cleaning up after yourself, and making sure you've really done it right so the next tech doesn't say, "Oh, those other guys TRASHED this thing". So, for seven hours, you just made $20!
Of course, you'll just say that I'm "bitter", and making stuff up. Well, bitter I don't know about, but yes, the above is a conglomerate of things that may happen, and it often does happen that way, so if you want to call it "made up" go ahead.
If you want to hear a REAL one, and I'll keep it short, I promise. Last week, at one of the places I do some work for, I get an Aragon power amp that was "blowing the main fuse". I go through all the steps above, but all the fuses are good. I guess the owner put a new main fuse in, it was a high-amperage ceramic one, not very common. So, start from the power supply out, because it was all easy to disconnect, power up to see if fuse holds, which it does, since I "got lucky" and all the outputs are socketed, I take them out, notice a small scorch mark on one, test each channel at a time, all's well. Test all the output transistors (only 8 total in this one), they're all ok. Huh? this doesn't make sense, maybe they just crossed speaker wires. Put it back together to test, remembered the scorch marked transistor (big TO3). Right where it belonged, there was a shielded signal wire with a melted spot through the insulation. YAY! I found it. Collector to ground? fuse go boom! Unsolder signal wire, which was a PITA because it went all the way through a thick double-sided board. Double-heatshrink the bare spot, put that amp back together, cable tie the signal wire out of harm's way, put the cover back on and clean the amp (can't send it home as dirty as it came in). Amp plays great, let it play for about an hour, keeps getting better as it heats up. Cool, all done!
Owner of shop asks, "How much for the repair you think?"
"What time is it? dang, took me three hours, but no way we can charge that, how about and hour and a half?"
"That may be pushing the limit for that kind of repair".
"Yeah, you're right, so $80 total".
Next day:
Owner of shop:
"Oh, there's a problem with the Aragon amp"
"Oh no, what?"
"The owner's brother brought in the wrong amp, he was supposed to bring the Accurus amp, which is blowing fuses, not the Aragon".
IF you're with me this far, hope you all have a nice evening!
BT
Sparky's "attitude" really shouldn't influence your decision any more or less than anyone else's input in this thread. The bottom line is if the amp has corresponding value to you as regards the financial expenditure you need to invest in it. Mostly it seems that it doesn't"I buy all my equipment from local B&M stores and I'm all for supporting the little guy."
That amp came from a local B&M shop? The local repair shop ISN'T a "little guy"?
Contradictions, man...
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
..... Not to mention he bought the legendary POS for 50 bucks off ebay. Is ebay now B& M ??Smile
Sox
1) fluke DMM
2) weller solder station
3) ability to read & understand a schematic---these 3 things have saved me thousands of $$s and countless headaches when things have gone wrong w/ CD players, tube amps, tuners, preamps (not to mention giving me the ability to construct budget but satisfying cables)
rhyno
and it was worth every penny!This is sometimes who we evolve in the hobby. Live and learn. If you cant do it yourself pay someone who can and be happy they are around. I know I am :-)
Smile
`
the shop rate of $60 to $80 per hour and the cost of parts. The question is is it worth it to you?
Time to bail. Take your cash and buy a Onkyo A-9555 Integrated Digital Amplifier for $500. And never look back. It's that good.
That's what I use as to help decide if a piece of gear is worth fixing. Can you even find a comporable integrated made today??? If you really love it then it's worth it.
.
... hunting out great pieces of vintage kit at bargain prices then $200 hundred may be too much to spend when you can get another amp for $50.
If THIS amp is the one you want, a total of $50+200=250 for a great amp doesn't seem like a lot.
Me? I think I would be out amp-hunting again.
I believe the amp-season is open!
Another poster had a similar question regarding repairs on a DVD player. The link below explains why it costs so much to fix things.
Does a competent stereo repairman owe his services to the public at below cost? It is interesting how highly we value what we make in our own job (or what we feel we should be making) but think everyone else owes us their product or services for a fraction of that rate.And it is not just the labor cost. Stereo equipment repair involves test equipment, manuals, parts inventories, not to mention the overhead for rent, furniture, fixtures, utilities, taxes, insurance and so on.
However, that is one of the risks with used equipment. Sure you often find a pretty good buy, but if it breaks due to age, misuse or whatever, you can quickly find you don't have much of a bargain. You simply have to calculate what the advantages are compared to the disadvantages and play your cards. And if you gamble wrong, it just is what it is. You're not entitled to have someone else bail you out on the cheap.
Thanks for your opinions. I will weigh all of them before making my decision.Dennis
at the norm of $80 an hour for labor. Parts extra!
Different industry and different equipment but...Our T&M pricing is about $250 / hr + parts + travel expenses. Good help is hard to find and expensive. Consequently, we sell lots of maintenance contracts. ;-)
2 things to note:1): competent, knowledgeable technician is hard to find these days, so when you manage to locate one, it's never cheep to begin with.
2): although it's flawed, this market is designed with either premature or planned obsolescence into equipments out in the consumer market, stereo amps and CeeDee players, DeeVeeDee players, and the likes. 50 bucks to purchase an amp (dunno what state it was in before) wasn't so bad but ultimately, you shall expect to pay a bit for repairs esp. used units from unidentified party with unknown service/operational history to it.
You think this is astronomical? Try an MB automobile dealership in fixing your C230 and you'll instantly appreciate the price an electronic repair shop charges you these days.
My 2c's worth
The cost doesn't seem too bad - it takes just as much labour to replace a capacitor in a $50 amp as it does in a $5,000 amp.After spending your $250 however you still have an amp that will fetch $50 on Ebay so far better to buy a $250 amp off Ebay unless you are particularly taken with the HK, in which case a total cost of $300 for an amp you're happy with is still a bargain in the scheme of things.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
First, the fact that you paid only $50 for is irrelevant to the complexity and cost of repair.Second, the only relevance of the cost of repair is whether the expense is worth it to you and then you need to think of whether you could to better for the estimated $200-250.
Third, the cost of repair is dependent on the parts, time and overhead of the repairer and, to a great degree, independent of the cost/price of the device. That's why there are so many electronic devices that are simply never worth repairing.
Kal
I purchased an el cheapo 13" TV for $89. 14 months later, the screen died. Since all the parts were still covered by warranty I took it in for a repair estimate hoping it was modular enough to just swap out the chassis.The guy called me later and gave me the figure. After I burst out laughing, the guy said "don't tell me - that's more than you paid for it". Yep. Buying a new replacement was less expensive than the labor cost alone (never mind the parts cost they were covering) to fix the old one.
rw
I don't understand your reaction. The fact you paid $50 for it has nothing to do with the repair shop having to make ends meet. If you can find parts and someone to repair it, I think you are ahead of the game.
What else could I get for 250 dollars..perhaps something of equal value?.. Can you take 250 into an audio store and buy the equivalent ? anything used is a crap shoot.I've noticed sentimentality plays a part in the decision as well. Why do I spend money to keep my 30 year old AR XA turntable or Advent 201 cassette player running ? could it be because they were my first audio purchases and evoke memories.
nt.
What is the best alternative use of $250? Do it, if you feel better. This isn't complicated. Complaining doesn't help you make yur choice.How much work? What's broken? What are the replacement parts?
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