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In Reply to: Question, would a Stradivarius violin that sold for 2.4 million, measure differently than say a desent $1,000 one? posted by gme109 on April 4, 2007 at 06:40:53:
I have actually measured a Stradivarius, Guarneri del Gesu and Guadinini with a 1/6th octave RTA. How did I manage this? My ex-girlfriend is a professional soloist on the violin. At one time she was sponsored by wealthy individuals in Zurich, one owned a Strad, one owned a Guarneri and the other later owned the Guadinini. She was playing them to help a buyer decide which one to buy (she later got to play the Strad for about 7 months so I heard it everyday. Before that she played the Guadinini for 10 months and the Guarneri only for some weeks.). Not only do these violins sound RADICALLY different (in the hands of a professional that is) they measure different in terms of the harmonics and overtones as well as the ratio of the intensities. So here is one difference that is easily objectified.Not only do violins sound and measure different, the bow that is used; its weight and stiffness, affect the sound. For example she had one bow that was light and responsive that she liked to use when playing technical pieces like Paganini Caprices or Batsinni. The heavier bow gave richer tone and was better for Romantic works like Brahms.
Once I had a friend over who wanted to hear her play the Strad. The one she had to play on was a good example of the breed and has an incredibly powerful sound. Very rich tonally but brilliant and projection like a laser beam. Now the friend was curious if he could hear the difference in violins so my ex pulls out an inexpensive (only about 2000 euro) violin made in Romania and starts to play on it. Guess what it sounds like? Not so much a violin but a damn hollow box of wood with strings attached!!! With the Strad, the violin is resonating so strongly that it is difficult to tell exactly where the sound is coming from...because its coming from the whole thing!!
My friend and I were stunned, he because he had never heard a GREAT violin compared to a cheap one and I because I had never heard a cheap one before...period (she only got top class instruments to play) and was shocked at how poor it sounded compared to the great ones that had come through our apartment.
Follow Ups:
In the case of the article, we have a professor who has studied the Stradivarius in great detail over a period of many years. Could it be that he has actually managed to clone the great one? If so, then the audience was hearing in his new violin what audiences heard in the Stradivarius so many years ago. It's a thought that I'm certain many have considered, and it should make the prices of a new Nagyvary violin skyrocket.
Well there was one other violin my ex played on quite a bit and it was an early 20th century strad copy. The interesting this is that it sounded really good...sometimes. It turned out that it was sensitive to seasonal changes and would go from sounding great to terrible over the course of a couple months and then back again!! In the end it never sounded as good as the real thing but it was better than having nothing for the time being. There have been countless copies of Strads made over the last 250+ years. Some quite excellent and some rubbish.Maybe this guy found the secret and maybe he did not. History will tell...
I wonder if you're not simply measuring what the modifications, sometime in the 19thC, do to the sound of each instrument.Strad's - as a group - responded best to these mods.
?
Because he was taking his violin designs in the big concert-hall direction!
Further, it is considered by the experts that these modifications effectively ruined the capacities of many of the old classic violins. Which were then lost for good.
It is a source of considerable amusment to me that modified Stradivarii are worth so MUCH more than any of the far rarer unmodified ones.
Why?
Well, in the case of just about all other sensibly valuable 17/18C antiques modifications are a BIG no no.
I for one will only be able to respect this market's behaviour / values when an ummodified and far rarer Stainer goes for much more money! I have touched the Smithsonian's example - with gloves on - for a longgg nano second!
Now, even classic 50's/60's valve amps 'in unrestored state' are highly sought after, and, necessarily, just to LOOK at! ???? ......
Especially in the asian-tiger economies, now there's a sociographic trend worth some study!
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
Probably because if an instrument is actually played then parts like the neck, bridge and strings wear out and need replacing so they are for sure not original or even very old.
the MODS DO change the sound, they were intended to increase vlume and projection for big concert halls, see my other post to this thread!
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
to which instrument they are using for each and every trial.and, IF David Aitken is right, and I'm pretty sure he is about the distinctively right and encouraging feel of instruments, we may also have to isolate the players' sense of touch, and block their ears too!?
[I'm not an instrumentalist but I was trained as a cathedral chorister under the Royal Society of Church Music's programs, sang for 9 years straight. So, I can assure that it is the same for singers, we work very hard on getting to know and feel all the structures that can affect our sound and clarity. You can eventually just KNOW - to an eighth tone's level of certainty - what notes are possible on a given day, and why you're gonne be able to pull off, and NOT.]
So that they can't KNOW that this IS the BEST one, and thus play really well on it not only becuase it IS a good instrument, but partly because they are being affected by their emotions.
har har har!
Snap! wanna play anudder round!?
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
extensive mods too.they take off the top bit (belly?), the neck, and the fingerboard. The new kneck angles back more, the bridge is replaced with a higher bridge as is the sound post it drives with thicker and stronger one. The new fingerboard will be longer and angled higher up to match the neck and bridge, and the bass-bar which is glued to the back of the body will be stiffer and is often longer.
Also 'the famous glues' are no longer there, for ALL of these changes.
The stringing tension can now be increased substantailly, this IS of course using modern wound-steel and composite/steel-wound strings. The > 'd tension creates stronger sound not a higher pitch!
Fairly fundamental changes to how the main resonant structure is driven, don't you think?
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
Yes the neck, bridge and many other parts have to be replaced due to wear and tear. There is no such thing as an old violin that is completely original. As long as it was not seriously damaged; however, the body is still likely to be original.
nt
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config
Thanks, it was a great and fun learning experience and taught me a deep appreciation for music, sound and virtuosity of the musician.
That sort of stuff just hammers audio minutae into submission. Thanks for writing such a great letter.
Regards,
Geoff
Your welcome...happy to share my experiences with you all.
Great story. And it's so true of all instruments.We bought a piano last year because the digital rental broke and my son wouldn't quit playing. Man, we shopped and shopped and got more advice than you can imagine from Piano Guild members and tuners.
We wanted an older upright grand if we could find a nice one. That didn't happen. Then we found a store with an old Knabe and a Kimber grand along with the other Yamahas and such. Man, the Asian pianos just sounded like tin cans. And they babies from Europe didn't sound much better. The Kimber was horribly out of tune, but the 1906 Knabe just had great tone.
It turned out that the next tuner I talked to played Jazz with the owner of the store and some other really cool dudes over the last 60 years. Needless to say, the relic is in my living room and being played right about now.
Cool. Nice follow up story. I have had the opportunity to hear a Bosendorfer Concert Grand in a rich gentleman's home here in Zurich a number of times (he was the owner of the Guadinini violin) and my ex played two or three house concerts (for other rich Zurchers...I was only there because of my relationship to her) with this piano acting as accompaniment for her. What a sound! Especially in the lower octaves this piano is very special. I have also been fortunate to hear many Steinway pianos as well. Quite different but it is clear why they are more or less the gold standard.
Is there any other way to do these things that makes any sense at all?
...how did the different violins sound from your X's perspective as the player? Did she hear/feel the differences as did you further out into the room?
Oh yes she heard it and feel deeply in love with the sound of the Strad. Alas, it was not hers so it went back to its owner (an excellent musician in his own right). The Guad was also quite satisfying for her but she never really liked the Guarneri...too dark sounding and it went back to its owner not long after.
From my own experience as an amateur classical guitarist, the player definitely hears differences and feels them too. Playing is partly tactile and the overall experience of playing is different to listening. One's sense of the instrument does not come only from what one hears but one definitely hears differences.The player does not hear things as another person would. They're closer, and at a different angle to the soundboard. Instruments aren't perfect omnipolar sources, they have specific radiation patterns, and what the player hears is not going to be what the audience hears because of the difference in proximity to the sound source and that different listening angle. Also what the player hears is heavily weighted towards the direct sound because of their proximity. A listener elsewhere in the room/hall is going to hear a lot more of the room's contribution in what they hear. There will be less of that if you're close to the performer in a small room, but you still won't hear quite what the performer hears and vice versa.
Best regards,
Thanks,BTW, my ex was also an avid Apogee and Acoustat fan. She went with me to several shows and would often walk out of a room within 1 minute if the sound was not to her liking. For her it either had an element of truth to the sound or it was rubbish and she couldn't believe how badly most audiophiles could hear.
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