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In Reply to: 3,400 sales people have to leave Circuit City posted by Ole Lund Christensen on March 28, 2007 at 09:27:23:
Unethical actions of business led to the rise of labor unions. It's been a long-standing tradition of big business to exploit the work force, although it actually makes some sense form a dollar and cents standpoint.It is true that unions have their own issues. No organization is perfect.
However, labor unions do allow the works to navigate an acceptable wage. Equally important, a contract sets an agreed upon set of work rules for the employee and company to follow. And there is an agreed upon documentation and discipline procedure. All a union does is help develop a set of rules that will be followed by the employee and the company.
Some people say that unions will protect lazy employees. Not true. A union cannot protect anyone who does disregard their job requirements. Although the company has to follow agreed upon rules for discipline, it can terminate this kind of employee. If the company chooses not to make the effort, than yes, this kind of employee will stay around. However, this is not the fault of the union.
There has been an appreciable loss of middle class and manufacturing jobs in this country. It started with the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs; after all we were entering a post-industrial economy. Well guess what? They exported those new tech related jobs too. Now Circuit City is cutting wages in the service sector jobs? It's a disturbing trend. It's my opinion that a combination of consumer boycotts and labor unions are the only way to hold these companies for their actions these days.
Regards,
Mister Pig
Follow Ups:
Mr. Pig,Just out of curiosity, what exactly about this is "unethical"? I think there is a need to separate emotion - i.e. what "Feels" right or wrong - from what actually is right or wrong. (Or Ethical)
Circuit City is headquartered in VA which is a strong "At Will" State. This means you are employed "at the will" of the company and if the "will" of the company is to layoff employees or reduce wages - the company can do it. Circuit City is not doing well and has not been doing well for a long time - hence these things happen.
Now, we could discuss how this does not seem fair, or does not feel good and that it's unfortunate for those workers. And I would agree with you on all points - it is unfortunate and it does not feel good. However, "unethical" is a bit of a stretch. For comparison purposes - ENRON & Adelphia - now THAT's unethical.
Now, the reality check is no one ever said business is fair - it's business.
As the global economy is starting to include emerging "power houses" such as China & India - as an industrial nation we need to figure out how we fit into the new scheme of things. IMO - saying protect wages, protect workers - does not take us to where we need to go as a nation. We need to get better, faster, smarter because those countries are. Saying protect our wages and workers does not make us smarter, faster, or better - it just makes us slow and non-competitive. Then one day we will wake up and ask ourselves "what happened".
The world ain't fair either - we make our own future and I for one would prefer we focus on how to get smarter, better, and faster as opposed to Unions. (Which results in one day the Unions waking up and asking "where are all the companies we used to work for - ohh, they all went out of business because we could not compete with China)
(I have been laid off before and in fact just went through another one where many of my co-workers got laid off - 2 week ago. It's not fair - but it is business. Quite frankly - as the company I work for tries to turn things around - a union would make things 1000 times worse)
Now, the reality check is no one ever said business is fair - it's business.To me this is the crux of the discussion. Should business be fair? The culture of the U.S. says it values fair play, integrity, and the competitive spirit. We require that our citizens be honest and fair. Since corportions and large businesses are also citizens of this country, they should be held accountable for their behavior also. A company does not have the right to conduct business with no regard to the social effects of their behavior. Unfortunately business does not think this way, which has led to the rise of labor unions and government regulation. Both of these entities are a check and balance to ensure that the business sector acknowledges the societal responsibilities it has. Due to their past behavior business has created the need for both goverment oversight and labor unions. These parties did not come into existence on their own.
The point of being competitve in the world economy with new powerhouses such as China and India is an intereting topic. the U.S. advocates "free trade", but the playing field with these countries is not level. For instance China does not let free market determine the value of thier national currency. The Chinese government sets an arbitrary exhange rate, which will of course benefit them. If it were to float in the marketplace like other currencies, then Chinese goods would not be as inexpensive as they are. Other countries have close alliances between government and business. Tax breaks, lienent environmental laws, and no worker rights give these comapnies a significant competitive advantage when it comes to producing the lowest cost unit. The playing field needs to be level in order for free trade to be "fair".
So how did US companies get into this situation. I don't beleive that it was all the lazy, protected union workers that got us into this position. I thik the problem is an inherent flaw of our current business model. Companies no longer look to long term profibility and market position. Corportations are quite often being run by executives who have come up the financial side of the ledger. CFO's are now president or chairman. The value of a stock, or a minimum return on a cash investment are the tools used to measure a companies performance these days. Capital investment has to meet short term rate of return hurdles before they are considered. The control of US industry needs to come back into the hands of people who design and build products, not the individuals who track where the money flows.
One last point to consider. Every dollar of consumer spending flows through the economy. If a dollar is spent by the government, it turns over 3 times. In the private sector it turns over 7 or 8 times. Basic numbers from macro-economics. When you spend it on imports, it leaves the country and does not turn over at all. So it does not support other businesses, create new jobs, or enter the banking system as savings. It drains the economy fo a valuable resource.
If you will not pay the middle and working class of this country a susstainable wage, then who will buy the items we produce? Who will buy 25 to 30K cars? How can people afford to maintain a home? Or raise a family? This is a fundamental question of business ethics. Henry Ford understood this concept when he made the Model T. Ford paid his workers an unbelievably high wage, one which allowed his workers to be able to afford the product they were building. In the long term the US business sector needs to pay it's workers a fair wage that allows them to purchase the goods and servics being produced by the same businesses. this is only common sense, what is occuring now is not a sustainable economy.
Mr. Pig,I think the question of whether business should or should not be fair is unrealistic. Likewise we could ask is life fair??
Business in our country is a function of the market - and the market has no sense of fairness one way or another.
I do agree that CEO's and the current corporate enviroment is to focused on the short term and making the #'s look right for the street. Partly because many CEO's have short term incentive bonuses built into thier contracts. (Good and bad, if the stock is rising and I have a bunch of stock options - I like this)
In the end, our model is not perfect however it is MUCH better then all of the existing alternatives.
I am not a fan of corporate leadership today, however I think Union's days are long gone along with the value they provided. They did a lot of good back in the day, but today IMO they get in the way.
As I said, I have been laid off - and I am sure I will be again. It is what it is - and it's MY job to ensure I am ahead of that curve and keeping myself marketable. If I expect the companies I work for to take care of me, then I will have a lot of anger and dissapointment in my life. The world is a different place - we either change with it or get left behind.
Nothing fair about it, but history has taught us many times that if we fail to change - we WILL be left behind.
They day unions get in front of the issues our national industries face is the day they will begin adding value again.
This is an interesting discussion - my background being in Economics I obviously have a very pro free market stance.
the market has no sense of fairness one way or another.I would agree with that. this is why federal regulation and labor unions came into existence. They create a boundary for business to operate within.
In the end, our model is not perfect however it is MUCH better then all of the existing alternatives.
I would also agree with this statement. Or at least our model has the POTENTIAL to be much better. Corporations and business owners need to acknowledge their social responsibilities to the society they reside in. Business does not exist in a vacuum, and the profits they recieve come from people(workers) who they have an ethical obligation. It's kind of a chicken and egg scenerio. Which came first the business or the customer? The majority of customers are really just a worker for some business. They need to earn a respectable income so that they can be a good customer.
What is happening now is a gradual concentration of wealth. The middle and working class are shrinking. Industrial jobs have been exported. The post industrial stage of country was supposed to have a new class of tehcnical positions for individuals. Now those jobs are being outsourced too. Try getting ahold of technical support at Dell Computers. Since you have an economics background, you know that people must have a deent wage in order to buy goods and services. Without this the economy will shrink. As an example, look at the debt level being carried by the American family today. Now it's well over 12K a family. Either people have been convinced to live beyond their means. Or wages have not kept up with increases in the cost of living.
They day unions get in front of the issues our national industries face is the day they will begin adding value again.
Unions traditionally are looked at as a function of the workplace. But they have a social facet as well. They can be the vehicle that brings forth the thoughts and concerns of regular working people. After all, there really is no one else who will speak for the common person. Actually, you can look at a union as a PAC for working people. As a side note, unions were considere socialist and subversive groups by business. their treatment of union organizers was quite brutal. Anyways, to me, this is the true purpose of a union. To make bring the concerns of regular working people to thier employers and government.
As a bit of background. I have a BA from Eastern Washington University in Business Administration. And a BA from EWU in sociology. In some ways those degrees can be diametrically opposed. For the lst 12 years I have worked in the paper industry as an hourly operator. I currently run heavy equipment. I have been a lab tech, and worked on paper machines.
What is interesting is that we were bought last year by one of the largest investment companies in the country. Madison-Dearborn has systematically stripped our corporation of every long term assett we hold. First they sold all our timber holdings, which was the crown jewel of our company. they began to sell other long term assets and holdings to reduce the debt level they acquired from the purchase. We are a profitble company, but all the cash we generate flows to their coffers, with very little being re-invested in maintenance or capital expenditures. We are falling behind the curve every year, since our machinery is wearing out, and foregin machines come on line which are faster and newer. Quite frankly, our long term survivability depends on strategic desisions made by management. The mill workers really don't hae any influence over the important decisions.
What happens to these people if the mill were to close? I have an education that gives me a level of flexibility in changing jobs. The skill set of a 20 year papermaker is specific to this industry. Their ability to retrain or relocate is quite limited. From my perspective, the question of business ethics has a very pratical application.
Whoa Mister Pig,Your pro-union point of view doesn't ring true to most of us.
I had an opportunity years ago to witness the "value" of unions first hand before I had formulated an opinion on the subject. I was in college and worked in a closed-shop paper mill in the summers. Just to site one example of what labor unions do for business:
We were on a job repairing a machine that was costing the company thousands of dollars for every minute it was off-line. I was the only college kid working with about 7 or 8 "lifers" when a light bulb blew making it too difficult to see to complete the repairs. All of the men sat down! Wanting to prove my worth I asked where the lightbulbs were so I could run to get one. I barely got the words out of my mouth when the supervisor told me to "sit my ass down,replacing the lightbulb was a job for the electricians union. If they caught wind that we were taking work away from one of their unioned electricians there would be hell to pay!" We proceeded to sit there for almost 2 hours as the company not only lost the income from the downed machine, but also the productivity of eight or nine employess who were not allowed to change a freakin light bulb!
Now I ask you, how does that help advance the cause of any business in the U.S.? And would you assert that these men deserved their "acceptable" wage?
You know, my Dad worked for that mill from the time I was a little boy until he retired and the mill shut down. As a young boy I used to feel sorry for my Dad as he walked down the hill through the mill fence to go to work. I thought he was slaving away all day long for meanial wages. All that changed that summer I worked there. These men had it all figured out how to make 2 hours worth of work last all day. And if a young guy like me worked at a faster clip, we were reprimanded...by the bosses! Nobody wanted the company to figure out that they were really only running at 30% efficiency! Now, why do you think there has been "an appreciable loss of middle class and manufacturing jobs in this country"? Could it be because unions found a way to do less and make more, so in effect caused there own demise? Hmmmmmmm.
I also spent some time as a sales manager with Circuit City. Their business philosophy and structure have been flawed for years. When Best Buy started to eat their lunch with non-commissioned employees it finally started sinking in. For years they fought it, but the consumer has spoken...they don't want to be hawked by a salesperson when they can get essentially the same service and answers from an hourly employee.
I agree that labor unions served a purpose. But they had their run. Labor Unions are antiquated and serve absolutely no purpose now.
MP--This lightbulb thing is a corporate urban legend, a bit of non-union propoganda I've seen before.Sofla is probably doing a little ballwashing with his boss in hopes of a better spot under the desk. Ingnore the weenie.
Sorry my friend. The incident is true. This is merely one example of many I witnessed. Drew an indelible impression on me.
There are thousands of stories just like this about unions and it ain't some grand conspiracy by "big business"! I have seen, first hand, numerous examples of union abuse just like the one Soflaspeed described. In the backward state that I live in, unions are still a power to be reckoned with. And they are a major reason why my state ranks at the bottom in everything from education to public services!The good news is that unions are dying a slow death in this country. The faster the better before they bankrupt more businesses.
Fiddler you hate unions because you hate to be reminded that some people will stand up and not be pushed around; you despise those who remind you of your own cowardice and servility. Every ballwashing, knee-scraping, bootlicking, rubbernecked lickspittle like you wants everyone else to be that way too.
Tom,Your posts always end with the same ole stupid, "ballwashing...ass kissin'...weenie" comments. It's an obvious sign of insecurity and low self-esteem.
Guys like you with a big obnoxious mouth always sit on the sideline. That's why you need a union. You're too insecure, incapable or stupid to represent your self. If you had the "balls" that you predictably and consistently blather about, you would take control of your own destiny. But no, toughguy Tom wants the "big ole union" to protect him and his job.
Give me a break. Quit your whining and accept the fact that the average worker is now more educated, self-reliant and mobile and the day of the stupid, follow-like-sheep dunderheaded "union man" is on the wane.
The good news is that in 10 years unions will be about 5% of the workforce. The days of the obese, lazy, uneducated union worker are coming to an end.
"wants the "big ole union" to protect him and his job."Apparently the point of a union has been lost in this discussion. Unions allow "all" employees to negioate from a position of equality. One person alone does not carry sufficient clout to negioate from an even position with a large company. A union cannot protect a peson's job, only set an agreed upon set of rules that the company AND employee agree to follow. It's called a collective bargaining agreement.
the day of the stupid, follow-like-sheep dunderheaded "union man" is on the wane.
Ah this point of stupid...I have to take issue with this. So all the union members are stupid....
Teachers. Nurses. Firefighters. Police Officers. Electricians. Pipefitters. Just to name a few. I think all of them would take issue with being called stupid.
How about me? I am a rank and file union member. I work in a paper mill. Operate heavy equipment. Also have a degree in Business Administration from Eastern Washington University. B.A in Sociology from EWU. Graudiated with a 3.39. Care to call me a stupid union member also?
One thing I have discovered about working with these blue collar. "stupid, follow-like-sheep dunderheaded "union man" that you call them. Is that they can be every bit as smart and intelligent as an educated engineer. Many cases they would have made an excellent mechanical, electrical, chemical enginner, but their life path did not allow them the opportunity to go to school. NEVER assume they are stupid. All you are doing is exposing your own ignorance.
"The days of the obese, lazy, uneducated union worker are coming to an end."
Unions ar enot the powerhouse they were in the post WWII era, that is true.It is a symptom of what has gone wrong with this country. Too many manufacturing jobs have been lost oveseas. The goods being produced there are still needed by this economy, and should be made within our borders. The loss of these jobs cannot be the sole fault of union labor. (Actually with union labor you get better trained employees and a stable work force. Things that are needed to be successful in the manufacturing process.) Companies no longer take a long term look to the future. The value of the stock share can have more relevance than the product being produced today. Multi-national companies have no concern about what the effects of thier action are on individuals, states, or even the countries economy. Yet their charter is still in the US. Shouldnt they be held accountable for their actions?
You talk of the damage that unions have done to businesses, and how they handicap them. But business is more than capable of damaging themselves. It is white collar managers who are responsible for
Enron
Halliburton No-Bid contract awards
Anderson-Lay accounting scandles
the S&A disaster of the 80's
the Love Canal incident on the East Coast
the latest pipeline problems in Alaskaand the list can go on. Costs millions if not billions of dollars. All by their own hand.
I honestly believe that only organized labor is capable of negioating with large businesses on an equal footing. Companies do not want to pay a respectalbe wage if they don't have to. Thats why they make use of cheap foreign labor. It's easier to exploit another countries poor people. Organized labor is the only way to obtain a living wage from a company consistently.
Regards,
Mister Pig
Mister Pig,Keep drinking the Koolaid.
You and I see the working world from polar opposite perspectives. The good news is - my side is winning. The sooner unions are gone the better.
Please address if the issues brought up. Leave the rhetoric at home. If you can't discuss the points of contention intelligently, then don't post.
Who are you to dictate what my response should be. I have no obligation at all to respond to your union brainwashing.The truth of the matter is that I know your position and you know mine. Neither of us is going to change the other's mind. So I'm not going to waste a lot of my time with some long, time-consuming response to your issues. I have a business to run and if I spend too much time here and ignore the needs of my business and my employees, they may get the dumb idea that they should "organize".
"I have no obligation at all to respond to your union brainwashing."It is interesting to note that your comments consist of name calling and rhetoric.
Yes I know your position, i have a degree in business admin, and I have been a manager.
I had high hopes that an intelligent discussion could take place. I guess I was wrong.
Wow Tom, so much hate. You see, guys like Fiddler and I decided long ago that we want to drive our own bus through life. If you need someone to represent you, that's fine...sad...but fine.
Just A couple of questions here.I would have to assume that this was not a single 60 watt incadescent bulb just hanging from the ceiling.
More than likely it was a 250 watt or higher metal halide bulb. High power fixtures have their own risk.
So as a summer employee do you have the necessary training to open a high voltage electrical panel and throw the breaker? Do you have the necessary equipment to measure and verify that the breaker is open?
Do you have the training to determine if there was a reason why this bulb failed?Now if this was a regular 100 watt bulb these questions do not apply. But even something as simple as lighting in the industrial work place can have it's own inherent dangers.
Oh, and the bulb failed because it got wet.Your points are valid, and if it was a more complicated situation than I described it would not have left such an impression on me. Quite literally it was a matter of running to get another light bulb and screwing it in.
There are more stories I could share, but won't, that really made me shake my head. I was absolutely amazed at what I learned there.
Just a regular ol' lightbulb
i am currently employed in the paper industry. things like that have occurred in the past, thats true.Ah but you see there is one line that stands out.....
"if a young guy like me worked at a faster clip, we were reprimanded...by the bosses!"
This is due to improper management. A union cannot protect anyone who does not do thier job. they can be reprimanded, and terminated...as long as an agreed upon set of procedures are followed.
"These men had it all figured out how to make 2 hours worth of work last all day."
Once again, foreman or supervisors not doing what their jobs require. It is human nature in ANY occupation for some people to do nothing, if supervision does not enforce their expectations.
Todays workforce has changed. Contracts have flexibility clauses installed to stop events like you describe. Pipeefillters,millwrights, and electricians are crosstrained in order to be more efficient.
while your example is a classic one used in describing the deficiencies of unions....heres another thought. What happens when unqualified/untrained individuals attelpt to repair a piece of equipment? there is a significant risk they will be hurt....and industrial machinery is quite unforgiving. In my career i have seen several summer students or new employees injured due to their lack of experience, or inability to understand their surroundings. Sometimes there is a division of labor for very good reasons.
"In my career i have seen several summer students or new employees injured due to their lack of experience, or inability to understand their surroundings." Yeah, changing the lightbulb would have put me at risk for injury. Only joking.I think the overriding impression I took away from working in the closed-shop is the culture of doing as little as possible, and being proud of it. That was the philosophy of the entire place, heck, the entire town!
And you are absolutely right regarding the shortcomings of the supervisors and "bosses". You see, the supervisors were still union, while the managers or "whate hats" were salaried. All of the supervisors were in on the deception. They acted like high school kids pulling the wool over the teachers eyes. It frankly was embarrassing.
I did work in management for a company who "suffered" a union campaign. We successfully beat the union effort. You know that without exception, the employees who supported the union were the same employees that I had the most trouble with! The employees who took extra long breaks, who hid from customers, who avoided 'volunteering' to assist in projects outside of their immediate area of responsibility but were still required of them periodically, who were the last in yet the first to want to go home. The same employees who never understood the meaning fo teamwork, and were forever trying to get something for nothing were the staunchest union supporters. Kind of fell right in line with what I had experienced as a college kid in that mill.
I know my perceptions are probably scewed a little too far right. And I do believe there are some union members who are industrious and strive for better relationships with the companies they work for in pursuit of greater market share, more profits for everyone on the team, and better working conditions, wages, etc. They are just in the minority.
"I do believe there are some union members who are industrious and strive for better relationships with the companies they work for in pursuit of greater market share, more profits for everyone on the team, and better working conditions, wages, etc. They are just in the minority."in the private sector, I believe this is mor of the norm. To survive in todays market, unions and management have to work towards the same goal. The rank and file recognize this, and the majority of them do attempt to look out for the comanies(and their own)self interest.
However, there are lazy workers, just as there are bad managers. And the union really can't protect them. Although management may choose to tolerate them. For instance I have seen employees who disregard safe work practices admonished by their fellow employees. When properly implemented the system can work.
"The employees who took extra long breaks"I am making these posts from home while on vacation.
Are you doing the same? It would be unethical to use company time to surf the net and post to AA.
Of course if you are salary, it would be possible to justify the time you surf from work.
Just a question.
I own the company.
Glad to hear it. I amdire individuals who have the willingness to take the risk and do the work of running a company. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.
There are valid observations on both sides.But in the case of Circuit City. Imagine asking those 3000+ employess how well their efforts were rewarded. they might have a different opinion about the value of a negioated work contract.
And just how well were they rewarded for being a team player? Working outside thier field of specialty, or coming in on their days off? Thats a nice reward, being replaced by lower paid workers....heck their jobs wern't even eliminated.
I must say though that it sounds like you have well formulated ideas based on your own life experiences. As you said there a valid points on both sides.Hey, maybe we'll meet across the negotiating table some day?
Oh not likely. I am just a rank and file member. Do not hold an office. My thoughts are just based on my life experiences, and the Business Administration degree I earned from Easern Washington University.
Oh, I agree with you more than you think regarding CC. It really is a bonehead PR move, but one that unfortunately is necessary due to the competitive disadvantage they put themselves in. I do feel that many of the employees probably deserved better. I hope most of them saw this coming and prepared themselves for their next position.But I can't help but wonder what a union could have done for them. Hold on to their compensation plan while the company went under? You see, a company with poor management that fails to act in a timely manner to remain competitive is better off than one who cannot act because of a collective bargaining agreement because they still can make necessary changes to "right the ship". Even if those changes are unpopular.
I tried before I left Circuit City to shed some light on what I believed to be a flawed management style, cumbersome employee review process and lack of a proper recognition and reward system for the salespeople who did have passion for what they did. Ultimately I left because I could not embrace their management culture, and could not effect any meaningful change.
That's the beauty of our free enterprise system. You can choose to be proactively involved in your own development and future and make your own decisions, or you can choose to pay someone to represent you. Personally I think you'd be better off "driving your own bus."
Labor Unions are formed so the most mouthy, pushy, and obnoxoius workers can get elected to the executive, give themselves fat salries and lots of benefits and exploit their fellow union members more than any employer ever dreamed of.The watchwords are control, corruption, intimidation, goonery, mob rule!
Democracy is a foreighn concept to these organizations.
Labour Unions="disorganized crime"
The competent and honest indidvual has no need of, no use for, and indeed no time for a union.
fair to the non-salaried worker. They'll pay them a living wage, make sure that they have safe working conditions, do their best to provide health care, never shrink the retirement benefits they've been promised,
treat them with respect, and never pay the CEO and CFO 100 to 1000 times the annual salary of the average worker, while at the same time cutting the compensation of their workers. Why? Because they're fully aware that the workers are the lifeblood of the business, and without them they have nothing.
Those are some nice blanket statements.As a member of the AWPPW and Carpenters Union, I would say my experiences do not reflect your viewpoint.
"Democracy is a foreighn concept"
Untrue. Officers are elected by the general body, and have a set of election rules that must be adhered to. in our union they can serve a maximum of 12 years. This appears to be a democratic process to me.
"Labor Unions are formed so the most mouthy, pushy, and obnoxoius workers"
Another interesting statement. The officers of the unions I have been a member of as a general rule are intereted in the overall working conditions of the workplace. Being a union officer takes alot of time and personal committment. Sure there are bad officers, but as a general rule they don't stay in office for long.
"The competent and honest indidvual has no need of, no use for, and indeed no time for a union."
With this statment I have to disagree. It does not matter if you are good at your work, or honest. You do not have enough weight as an individual to make an effect in your working conditions. And really, very few if any individuals are irreplacable to an employer. So most people are forced to take what they can get, instead of bargaining for an equitable compensation package.
Unions aren't perfect. But they were created by big business. If companies would have treated their employees equitably, unions would never have been formed.
...they fired every damn buggywhip-maker too. There oughta be a law.
and next will come the smart chip makers ...
....precisely because of the long-standing abuses, many of which lasted into the 1950's and 1960's. But you already know this.
Dave
Later Gator,
Crank up your talking machine, grab a jar of your favorite "kick-back", sit down, relax, and let the good times roll.Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.
Please do elaborate your profund thoughts for the unwashed masses.
In other words, like it or not, *save the business* is a legal responsibility to the shareholders.
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