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In Reply to: As a long-time KEF 104/2 owner... posted by Steven R. Rochlin on March 8, 2007 at 04:30:42:
i know i hid it there in my long prose, but i really like my REL Q100 sub. looks good and sounds great with the 104/2. must be a british thing ;-)one of the things i really dig, other than the bitchin' mids on the 104/2, is it's sense of scale. intimate music sounds intimate, but larger than life music is presented with a huge soundstage. a bit like my old bozak 302A urbans in that regard.
see ya,
Robby
Follow Ups:
Robby,Oh yeah, sense of scale is stunning with the 104/2. If you really site back and study the engineering that went into that speaker it becomes ever-more impressive from a geek (me) standpoint.
FYI: years ago my listening room with the 104/2 was a LEDE setup (live end-dead end). The front of the room (behind the speakers) had acoustic dampening all the way up to the first reflection point in front of the speakers (this included the ceiling BTW). The things we music lovers do! The music was completely enjoyable and imaging was jaw dropping 3D as the sense of zero 'room' and full spacious sound completely surrounding me. Made many 'surround sound' systems sound disjointed and they lacked seamless expansion. Did an RIAA test using an IASCA friend's competition unit and the frequency response was very, very flat all the way down to 55Hz, then some room effects showed their ugly head and got close, but not as smooth line as the over 55Hz frequencies.
As for my sub comment, my apologies for missing it. Rel is a British thing indeed as they may be hard to find on this side of the pond. Sad really, as their products have received critical acclaim for a long, long time. Add to that, M+K has recently had a downturn of luck though we Yanks do have access to some quite usable subwoofers.
PS: make sure the bottom screws on your 104/2 are snug as they tend to loosen up. Another humble suggestion, remove the hefty M/T/M panels and remove the connectors and directly solder the wires... or (not easy) rewire the entire thing all the way to the crossover. Lastly, the 104/2 woofer cones have a center foam bit that appears to be suffering from age, with reports in the field being near degration. DO NOT SUBSTITUTE the woofers if KEF can not supply the proper center foam element. It is a long story, though KEF's fix is (?was?) is to use a completely different driver and mounting system. One of my friends took a year and recently now offers a proper replacement/spec foam center. i DID inform KEF of this and not sure if they are now buying from him and supplying to dealers. Just a heads up about the center woofer foam surround and that YES, there IS a direct and proper replacement.Hope the above helps and my apologies for being long-winded here, though am trying to help as i can.
Enjoy the Music (Roger Watres "Radio Kaos right now),
Steven R. Rochlin
Editor, Enjoy the Music.com"[Billy:] "Four minutes and counting."
[Jim:] "O.K."
[Billy:] "They pressed the button, Jim."
[Jim:] "They pressed the button Billy, what button?"
[Billy:] "The big red one."
[Jim:] "You mean THE button?"
[Billy:] "Goodbye, Jim."
[Jim:] "Goodbye!Oh yes
This ain't au revoir, it's goodbye!
Ha! Ha!This is KAOS
It's a beautiful, balmy
Southern California summer day
It's 80 degrees...
I said balmy...
I could say bomby
Ha! Ha!
O.K.
I'm Jim and this is Radio KAOS
And with only four minutes left to us
Let's use this as wisely as possible....
([Molly:] Everybody got someone they call home)Out at Dodger Stadium
It's the bottom of the seventh
The Dodgers are leading three to nothing over the Giants
And for those of you who are looking to go surfing tomorrow
Too bad
(Telephone rings)
I'm kinda lost in here to tell you the truth
O.K., good
Ladies and gentlemen
If the reports that we are getting are correct
This could be it
Billy, if you're listening to me
Please call now."After a near miss on the plane
You swear you'll never fly again
After the first kiss when you make up
You swear you'll never break up againAnd when you've just run a red light
Sit shaking under the street light
You swear to yourself you'll never drink and drive againSometimes I feel like going home
You swear you'll never let things go by again
Sometimes I miss the rain and snow
And you'll never toe the party line again
And when the east wind blows
Sometimes I feel like going home..."
here's their story. traded them for my restored bozak 302A Urbans. they were this nice chap's dad's speakers. when his father passed on, the guy wanted to do his mid century house up with, well... mid century stuff. perfect fit for the bozaks! he mainly listens to soul an gospel. so, the bozaks and his fisher 500C do it up real nice.anyway, after the trade i was in for a Little surprise. THE TWEETERS WERE DEAD! he said, "hey that's why i didn't like them!" cool cat, he fronted the cash for replacements.
as you know, the T33 suffers from hardening ferro-fluid over the years. you can try and clean them. gets better, but not perfect from the people that tried it.
i went through 4 sets of tweeters before finding a very nice match. for the record, i tried wimslow audio's reco of the morel MDT29. barely fit, but an 8 ohm tweeter of 89 db sensitivity in a conjugate loaded 4 ohm x-over sounded BAD! harsh and 3 db down.
after scouring the Internet for anything that would fit in the mid/HF cavity with the flange off AND was shallow enough for the wood plate to slide over, i found the Vifa MG27-04. 93.5db into 4ohms. fits perfectly.
now, i have never heard properly running T33, but the little $22 Vifas (last of the danish made ones) sound INCREDIBLE! meld perfectly with the other drivers. they don't go to 30kHz like the T27 in my KEF Calinda, but are far smoother.
these are early 104/2, so single binding posts and rubber surrounds. BUT the annulus is foam. they look fine, but I'm sure they are brittle from just being 22-23 years old.
i have them on 9" AVF metal stands which greatly smooths out the boomy tendencies (especially with low current amps - like tubes) and gets the tweeters to ear level. lastly, i have two pairs of old microscan anti resonance devices on them (free from a friend). one set on back and another resting on top. those little buggers help!
thanks for the info on the front panel bolts. they are just finger tight right now. I'll torque them down when i get home.
see, my turn to be long winded ;-)
see ya,
Robby
Oh yeah, i burned through one years back and yeah, well... Hmmm... perhaps i should send me pair to an engineer friend who i know has the right people who could redo them. Call it like my cars, just in for a checkup and fluid change (grin). If my engineer can't so it, will tag my old KEF friend and see what he may be able to do, as he left KEF during the changeover about a decade ago and helped me to REALLY understand the design of the speaker.Enjoy the Music (U.K. "Presto Vivance and Reprise"... no lyrics, but think King Crimson with a bit more, well, more as some of the members are from the old KC),
Enjoy the Music,
Steven R. Rochlin
Editor, Enjoy the Music.com
i could send my dead T33 to him if he can fix them. the vifas do sound very nice though.see ya,
Robby
Hi there from Aussie- I recently ordered some replacement T33 tweeters and woofers from KEF in England- I really ordered them as spares in case of "accidents" but i have heard that the newer T33 sounds better than the original (they have a physically smaller dome). I asked the man at Kef if this was the case and he said to leave the KEFs alone if I was happy with them. They weren't expensive and were delivered quickly. I have one woofer that is playing up- a bit of distortion on some tracks but I think I would rather have it looked at than fit the replacements- they have the foam rubber surrounds and annulus that rot quickly in our climate. My KEF 104/2's are the earlier model with the single binding posts.I have a local supplier that can upgrade the crossover components although I am loathe to touch them as I am worried the tonal balance may change from this- what do yo think?
do you have new old stock T33? the tweeters KEF srecommends now is NOT the T33 or anything close to it. it's just the only thing they have that will fit. it's a small little tweeter that's for their uni-Q drivers.and it's not cheap. about $240/pair. some like them and others say they are bright and screechy.
Robby
I was wrong robby,
I take it back you do know your sh*t !!!!
good. now I wont comment about anything you have to say,
Im sorry, seriously, I took you for something you were not.
you definently know your shit.
drew~
see, I do like hearing my own voice ;-)actually, I'm just bored. not much going on at work today. just typing crap and listening to the Radar Bros.
anyway, i agree with a lot of what you say drew. but, in a different way. at the core of it. i don't give a shit if a 50 year old doctor finds joy in blowing $100,000 for a Wilson/Krell system. if he finds joy in the result and doesn't mind the cash outlay, good for him.
and to that extent, if he solely wants to listen to tubular bells on said system. that's fine by me too!
what i don't like is when somebody equates their own worth with their material possessions. do i like audio? yes. do i like music? yes. is it a part of me in some regard, sure. but do i equate any of my personal value to my possessions? HELL NO!
we don't really own anything, we are merely their purveyors until we die. then our stuff will be someone elses, or in the dump.
so, my main problem is when some ultra-buck audiophile tells me my system sucks and his is the real deal (it's happened). huh? what makes him so special? his credit card? BFD!
it's not like this "audiophile" designed and built each component himself, he's just some tool with a high credit limit. plain and simple.
same for "music enthusiasts" who act all "high-fidelity" (as in the movie), judging others musical tastes. it's bad enough for a skilled musician to do this, but for a talentless ass to critique someone else's musical tastes is ridiculous.
i like what i like, but as far as music, i find it hilarious when music snobs act all high and mighty just because they own some obscure material. even though they can't EVEN PLAY AN INSTRUMENT! i mean what inherent talent is necessary for being a stuck up "indie-phile"?
so, next time anyone encounters a NICE rich person with an ultrabuck system listening to michael bolton. just be happy he's happy. then go home to your system and play what you like.
Robby
you are right in some aspects though. i need to just listen to music and stop farting around with the system.as stated in another post. i tried NIN the downward spiral, craked the sub up to 80 hz for that "arena bass flub" and just gunned it. FUN!
i think rock needs to be cranked to do it justice. next up was a blast from the past. a little Death Ride 69, Steel Pole Bathtub and Big Drill Car (remember them?).
you gonna see iggy pop with the reunited stooges? my wife and i are seriously contemplating it. they are playing the warfield in SF (but are doing a national tour). you run the risk of everyone being washed up in their late 50's, but the new album got great reviews, they have mike watt on bass and iggy would sooner kill himself than fade away.
Robby
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