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is there really a difference in sound? thinking about trying one.
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I don't have a comparison but I added a pair of T1 ribbons (internal crosssover bypassed w/electronic crossover and dedicated power amp)to my maggie system about 30 years ago. I fired it up and had a listen. There was improvement in the top end but it would have been hard to justify the cost for that alone. The surprise was the amazing improvement in the bottom end. They provided the missing attack on drum hits, string plucks and a host of other musical components. They really rounded out the system across the board. Worth every penny.
This is a common effect with supertweeters. They tend to tighten up the bass frequencies giving them more detail and punch. I have heard this on several systems too.
Some of the old Maggies needed an added dash of sparkle.Kal
Agreed. Don't get me wrong, I love my old maggies but they need an added dash of everything. What I finally wound up with after trying endless combinations over the years is a quad amp system using a pair of Tympani 1Ds with two sets of Tympani IIIa bass panels (parallel wired on each side for 4 ohms) and the T1s on top. It's a pretty convincing system.
Hello there: interesting your answer. I have questions (a) website and link please ? (b) should those supertweeters be connected to the biding posts of the speakers or can they be connected directly to the biding posts of the amplifier ? (c) is placement an issue ? I have a small/medium size room and I have no many options about placement, have you tried them next to your speakers, at the buttom, or next to the amplifier, etc. ? thanks in advance. By the way, Door Nail: what you comment on the improvement on the bass area has been also perceived and commented by several reviewers, that's an interesting phenomena. Best, Antonio Machado.
The T1s were originally designed as an add-on for the 2+2W system (I think, not sure of the model number) They have a built in passive crossover, a five position attenuator and were connected directly to the amplifier. As far as placement goes yes it does matter. I have them clamped to the tweeter panels about four feet from the floor with the ribbons aligned parallel to the maggie's tweeter diaphragm.
Since we don't hear the frequencies these devices produce as sound, there is a question of whether they do anything that could affect what we do hear.My thought is that they provide a dissipative path for ultrasonic energy from the power amp. Most power amps have bandwidths far in excess of our hearing range, and can suffer from stability problems if the speakers have too much inherent inductance to load them at the higher frequencies. A super-tweeter will provide a respectable load to the amp and may help it avoid stability and intermodulation problems.
You can provide a wide-band load much more cheaply by adding R-C filters at your speakers. R is about 10 ohms, or the characteristic impedance of your speaker cable if you know what it is, and C is 0.01 microfarads. This is the recipe for the Walker High Definition Links. Wire the resistor and capacitor in series, and connect the free end of the capacitor to the (+) terminal and the free end of the resistor to the (-) terminal.
The best-sounding resistors I've found are the PRP types sold by Michael Percy. The best sounding caps in my experience are silver-mica.
You can extend the effective bandwidth of the load into the UHF range by using a series of caps, each about a factor of ten smaller than the last. A separate resistor for each is best, but you can also parallel the caps by themselves. Solder the R-C filters to the ends of the speaker cables for best performance, or use solid-silver spades if you don't want to modify your cables. Install filters at the amp ends as well for even better performance.
I'd like to add to Als explanations. I do believe that ultrasonic frequencies do influence our listening, either directly, or by interacting with the soundwaves in the room (as Kalman suggests).There is a much more mundane explanation as to why these supertweeters change the sound of a system. you are basically adding components and complexity to the existing speaker crossover when you put a supertweeter in a circuit. You typically attach a supertweeter to either the amps output or to the main speakers terminals. When you add another speaker to an amp, the amp sees a different load. In the most basic sense it usually lowers the impedance of the speaker load the amplifier sees. That's usually audible. You are also changing the resistance, damping etc. the amp sees. The main speakers crossover will also be similarly effected by the load of the supertweeter, the damping and backwave it creates etc.
All of the supertweeters I know connect with this method. It's also the explanation of why the Golden Sound supertweeters make an audible difference.
If you really want to test the pure effect of a supertweeter and not the R-C effect Al explains, you need to set up the supertweeter on it's own amplifier so you are listening to just the effect of the supertweeter and not it's electrical effect on your current system. I'd love to hear a setup like this, I bet it would be very educational.
"Since we don't hear the frequencies these devices produce as sound, there is a question of whether they do anything that could affect what we do hear."My thought is that they provide constructive and destructive interference with the existing tweeter in the range that their outputs overlap and, perhaps, intermodulation at audible frequencies. Of course, I am not talking about extending the frequency response, per se, but about doing it with an add-on device. Of necessity, they are situated many times more than 1/2 wavelength apart and cannot act as a single source.
Kal
and have a large roll off before the get close these can be mated to a super tweeter.And tweeters with ultra sonic range are not a good canidate for a ST. A 3/4in tweeter again is not the best to mate a ST to. But adding to full range drivers, electrosatic or planars.Or systems with reduce hifrequincy they can work well of course you need to take account of spacing etc.And I think you forgot ribbons which wave launch diferant from cones domes etc.
... I first heard a pair of supertweeters at Max Townshend's home. These were protoypes so that must be taken into account. However Max demonstrated them with his huge full range speakers and I was then impressed by the added sense of spaciousness. However, later in the day the supertweeters were run without the other speakers and I could still hear a "twittering" sound from them. This was quite audible and I would estimate within my normal range of hearing (which being over 50 years old is not, according to the last audiology test that I had, very extended).A couple of years later and a friend had bought a pair of production samples and had mated them with a pair of Sonus Fabers. When I entered his room he had a BBC radio play on FM playing. The speech was unusually sibilant which is a factor that I neither associate with BBC engineering nor with the Sonus Fabers. As my friend left the room to make some coffee I took the opportunity to be a bit naughty and turned down the supertweeters to minimum and then off (they have level controls). The sibilance disappeared. Now FM radio only has a programme bandwidth extending to 15kHz so whatever the supertweeters were doing it wasn't extending the envelope from 20kHz to some supersonic (from a conventional viewpoint) frequency. They were doing something below 15kHz.
Moving forward to a few months later, Keith Howard measured a pair in a review in Hi Fi News and got useable output below 10kHz.
To echo Mr. Howard's review - until one finds a supertweeter with brick wall lower cut off at 20kHz then their touted effect is highly questionable.
"To echo Mr. Howard's review - until one finds a supertweeter with brick wall lower cut off at 20kHz then their touted effect is highly questionable." Questionable, even then.Kal
US Army researchers in the early 50's and Cal State researchers in the mid 90's verifed that even though humans can not "hear" untrasonic frequencies they are still aware of their presence. While ultrasonic frequencies are not heard, they excite the auditory mechanism, sending data to the brain, which is aknowledged on a subconscious level. The subconscious sensation enhances the percpetion of what is heard. In addition the same process is part of the reason why some consider the nyquist frequency to have a negative impact on the sound of RedBook digital.Best,
Ross
several manufacturer's websites (manufacturers of supertweeters), aparently we do no listen to those ultra high frecuencies but we perceive them. Best, Antonio Machado.
let's have the references to those papers, please.Kal
Hello there: first to tell you thank you very much since during many years your comments and opinions on this Forums (and sometimes your answers to my specific questions) have helped me to get a better sound from my very fine two-chanel system. Now I have two questions for you: (a) when you say "off necessity, they are situated many times more than 1/2 wavelength apart and can not act as a single source" I don't understand what you mean, could you please elaborate and explain me more that statement ? (b) I am also considering a pair of supertweeters as an interesting addition to my Ambience Superslim 1800se Ribbon Hybrid speakers, kindly check them out at www.ambiencespeakers.com.au and I have some space limitations. Do you think I would get the same benefits from the supertweeters any place I can place them, let's say over the audio rack, or at the buttom of my actual speakers, or next to them, or on top of them, etc. ? I understand they are not directional so placement shouldn't be an issue, but again I have no previous experience with supertweeters and I would like to listen to your insights. Best, Antonio Machado
The Murata supertweeters are quite good Antonio, you might want to add those to your list to research.
Where you put any driver in relation to another is very important. In order for two drivers reproducing the same signal to act as a single source and NOT produce constructive/destructive interference (resulting in reduced dispersion, Venetian Blind effects and, possibly, lobing), they must be within 1/2 wavelength of each other. This applies to multiple drivers in the same bandpass (e.g., multiple woofers) or to two drivers sharing a band of frequencies at crossover.Consequently, I do not believe that any add-on supertweeter, regardless of how extended or smooth its FR is, can peacefully co-exist with another tweeter. Of course, that doesn't mean that someone might find (or imagine) the effect to be an improvement.
All that aside, why are you thinking of adding such to your speakers?
Kal
Hello there: I have a pair of Ribbon Speakers, Ambience Superslim 1800se and they are great in the middle range, transparency, clarity, abundant inner detail, very musical speakers. Nevertheless Ribbons are not good enough at the bass area, so I recently added a Velodyne DD15 Subwoofer better the bass, with extraordinary, excellent results. So I was wondering if a Supertweeter could help me to extend my spectrum in the high area. I have been reading about it and I might try a pair. On the other hand, I have heard that Supertweeters better the sound not just in the highs but in the middle range and the bass area as well. Not being a knowledge person myself, I just guess it is about Physic laws. Field of Supertweeters is a very interesting, intriguing one. Thanks again, Best, Antonio Machado.
I think that you should see if you can get them on loan or with return privilege. Then you can try them and see if they will do what you want.Kal
Hello Mr. Al Sekela: I find your response to Soundquest very interesting, no doubt you are a very knowlege audiophile. Now I have these two questions: (a) where can I get those products you mention ? specially with spades since I want something ready to install without any soldering of my own and if you have links or websites please ? and (b) I have already the Walker Audio High Definition Links, I like the subtle improvement they make to my sound, less edginess, more musicality, etc. now do you think if I get several of them I would get a cumulative effect ? I might ask this question to the manufacturer too, but just asking your thoughs and insights on this subject please. I have a pair of Ambience Superslim 1800se Ribbon/Hybrid speakers, kindly check them out at www.ambiencespeakers.com.au Best, Antonio Machado.
The solid silver spades I use come from Alpha-Core, under their Goertz Audio heading. A good, clean soldering iron and some non-lead silver-bearing solder would be required to attach wires or leads to them.See
http://www.goertzaudio.com/wirePrices.pdf
The resistors come from Michael Percy Audio, who also carries some nice Audioquest spades:
http://www.percyaudio.com/
The capacitors come from several electronics supply houses, or from Hosfelt Electronics for low prices:
http://www.hosfelt.com/
The parts are so cheap compared to the Walker HDLs that it would pay you to find someone with a soldering iron and hire them to make the networks for you.
Yes, adding more networks helps. Having one at each end of each speaker cable is the best.
Auditioned the Tannoy super tweeters when I first purchased my D700's. Did make a difference. I wasn't that I could hear the tweeters pursay (sp?), they just added to the whole sound from the loudspeakers. Unfortunately, I could really afford them, that and the huge amount of diminishing returns swayed me to pass on them. Fortunately the D700's sound great as is, so I don't look back with regret. You should try them though. You might find a difference enough to lay down the $$.
I have not compared them with others, however.I use them with a speaker that supposedly extends out to 30k Hz and get great benefit. So much for theory.
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