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In Reply to: Academia and Hip-Hip posted by musetap on March 5, 2007 at 10:28:03:
musetap,
I am hardly an "ostrich" nor am I ignorant when it comes to music. I can appreciate any artist that has taken the initiative to learn to play a musical instrument, ANY instrument, had inspiration to write lyrics and a melody, painstakingly record said work, etc... because I know how very difficult that is. Doesn't matter what type of music it is. It's one hell of an accomplishment. Please don't mistake my comments for ignorance, as I can wholeheartedly assure you I am not. If you want to call rap/hip hop a poetry of sorts, thats fine. Music, it is not. I look at it more along the lines of calling Paris Hilton an "Actress" ok?
Follow Ups:
> I can appreciate any artist that has taken the initiative to learn to play a musical instrument, ANY instrument, had inspiration to write lyrics and a melody, painstakingly record said work, etc... because I know how very difficult that is.Any artist?
I cannot agree with this completely. I could name names all day long, but let's just say that there are people who view music as music, and then there are people who view music as product. Some understand that it can be & is often both of these, depending on one's point of view. But my feeling is that the ability to execute these tasks you mention is something you're overstating here, especially when examined in conjunction with what you've had to say about rap music--that's right, MUSIC--for years now.
The way I see it, it's even harder to write lyrics & melody when there's NO inspiration than when there is, but, in spite of that hard work, I often do NOT appreciate work I consider to be lacking in inspiration...which indicates that it may have very well been much harder to create than the work of someone who WAS inspired. And since we all know that an artist has their whole life to write their first album & six months to write their second...that lack of inspiration sometimes, or OFTEN, strikes artists who begin careers at a time in their lives when music is a passion, and at some point find themselves in a place where it is merely a job.
But none of these are the end-all or be-all. A talent who's burned-out & cynical who feels they have run out of ways to express ideas may still toss off an album of paint-by-numbers fakery that some would laud as a transitional gem. Others might disagree, but then there may also be a lack of consensus on the polished, guest-producer- & guest-performer-laden, ghost- (sorry, CO-) written debut of a well-connected phenom...whose numbers will likely well surpass those of the gritty, intense, personal, deep, emotional artistic statement of the less-talented but up-&-coming obscuro who poured blood, sweat, & tears, and in many cases some measure of sacrifice, into a piece of work that may succeed for many on certain levels, but whose toons simply don't connect with folks who think they heard similar stuff done better decades ago by performers that today's young lions may never even have heard, yet managed to virtually copy something they didn't know existed. Ah, but there are no absolutes, which, again, is why I have to disagree with what you've written. Now, this is a more difficult argument to put forth without naming names, but it's more demanding, and therefore a more interesting exercise. Which I justify by remembering my view that music is worth taking seriously...and some of the best discussion comes from trying to convince the last dozen or so people on the planet who think they have a license to define what it is on the basis of one segment of it that they do not like, that they are neither capable, nor qualified, of forcing others to accept that definition, which is inaccurate at best.
Neither music nor the reactions to it are created in scientists' laboratories or on accountants' spreadsheets, so one must allow for exceptions to the rules, and those exceptions can be quite powerful. Which is why I'll argue for the less than 5% of rap music I've heard that I like rather than bother with caring about the 95% of it that I've heard that I think sucks rocks.
On that basis, unless you're a zealot with a complete lack of insight when it comes to contemporary pop and rock music, there may be reasons to consider a rap album 'better' in various ways, than a cynically conceived project that has more to do with looks & choreography than it does with what could reasonably be described as an organic creative process...oh, perish the thought. That decisions about how to market music are made at least in part on the basis of looks & choreography don't matter, because you appreciate anyone who plays an instrument, writes a song & makes a record. The rapper, who you have now generously chosen to refer to as a poet, the one who may well have more musical inspiration than you're aware of since you still seem to think there is no rapper who actually knows how to play an instrument or write a melody? That piece of work will always be inferior, not even to be considered as music, you maintain...even while you celebrate, through yr appreciation, the work of the well-connected and/or well-produced.
Meanwhile, on a couple of occasions I've taken heat from the Music board on this site for taking issue with the dismissals of others towards a certain fellow whose initials are BW. Maybe you didn't see those threads. It's a shame, because you would've found yrself on the opposite side of an argument regarding a form of music you're as appreciative of, as you are negative of this one you are here heaping scorn upon. It would've been instructive to be in the position of defending something you find great virtue in, in a discussion with people I would describe as knowledgeable, including at least one who happens to be a working pro. Not that they were as scornful in those discussions as you are towards this form of music, but then it would be silly to draw a musical comparison.
The attitude, however, is strikingly similar.
Do you not care that it looks simply foolish to carry this silly chip on yr shoulder as you do? Why would you assign this so much importance? And why would you be gleeful about a report that potentially bodes great ill for music in general, certainly the music business, not just the one segment of it you personally find unworthy? I mean, it doesn't take a genius to realize that declining sales figures across the board means less money spent on new projects, period. Fewer rap records selling isn't a sign of a renaissance in taste, it's a symptom of an unhealthy industry, for which any remaining profitability outlook exists in spite of itself. Guys like Steve Jobs recognize this; guys who think that it's wise to force Microsoft to pay a fee if someone purchases a piece of their hardware do not.
You are also ignoring those involved with rap music who do play instruments, who use melodies, who possess a pair of ears. We've been on this merry-go-round before. Why do you insist on continuing to take yr subjective view to an irrational extreme? You don't like it. We get it. You're entitled.
But you're not entitled to define something for the rest of us that's just plain wrong.
> Music, it is not.Incorrect. Please explain how you chart something that is not music. If it can be charted, you'll have to accept that it's music whether you like it or not.
> I look at it more along the lines of calling Paris Hilton an "Actress" ok?But, she IS an actress. Or WAS an actress. Hell, IFC had the movie Wonderland on the other night, and there she was, in a movie. Doesn't mean she's not a BAD actress, but you can't say that she's NOT when the evidence exists that she has in fact done what one must do to technically be referred to as such.
If you had the chance, would you seriously have tried to tell Miles Davis that rap is not music?
Paris Hilton is to "Acting" what Rap/Hip hop is to "Music" and what Montell Williams is to hair products.
"Any artist?"
Yes J.....ANY artist. Ask anyone who has ever written a song from scratch, wrote the melody, chord progressions, bass lines, vocal harmonies, backing instrumental tracks and went into a studio and pull it off sounding like a cohesive production how much work is involved. Talking over a drum machine is NOT the same thing, sorry. Not even close.
Here is a rocking video from Merzbow. Now this is music.
If it can be charted, it is music.Period.
I don't have to ask anyone about this, I've been involved with both. I know more about what you're talking about than you seem to think I do, and you obviously know less about what you're dismissing than you think you do.
Again I ask, would you have even dared spout this crap at Miles Davis? Or perhaps you don't know anything about the Doo-Bop album?
Ya know what J? You and I have been thru this before and i'm un-interested in going there with you again. You guys (the record buying public) know best. I concede that to you ok? After all, it was the all knowing well informed record buying public that launched Milli-Vanilli to the top of the charts and handed a coveted Grammy for "Don't worry, be happy" Those are but two of a plethora of choices by the well informed record buying public. STILL think EITHER of those great choices were the right ones?
Aloha
NT
whereas previously I was just vaguely interested and amused. I really am trying to just let this go, yet it...lingers...and I can't possibly figure out WHY I'm concerned about your opinion or POV...anyway:I didn't specifically refer to you as any of those, and, in fact, directly replied to you in the referenced thread. (Ostrich was supposed to be plural, but may have come out possessive because I misplaced the ‘. Whatever...) That doesn't mean those particularly dismal displays aren't readily apparent in posts in the Finally! thread below, which you may have initiated, but certainly aren't the only contributor to, as there are over 80 posts in that thread. However, you’re certainly free to interpret any references as you see fit.
I don't necessarily think you're ignorant, though you certainly seem to be in some state of denial, for whatever reason. If you choose to disregard an established and recognized musical form as music, to not acknowledge it as such, that's your choice. Obviously you're not alone, and it certainly does no harm to the music.
“I can appreciate any artist that has taken the initiative to learn to play a musical instrument, ANY instrument, had inspiration to write lyrics and a melody, painstakingly record said work, etc... because I know how very difficult that is. Doesn't matter what type of music it is. It's one hell of an accomplishment.”
So, a long time friend of mine has played in various bands for 18-20 years, plays in an Afro-pop group, a jazz/experimental ensemble and has played on and off for an extended time with a pretty well known (and controversial) Hip-Hop band . All these bands have recorded and have releases out and he’s toured the USA and played gigs in several European countries with the J/E and the HH bands (out of respect for him I’m not going to mention his name or the bands, but they are all pretty well known. Any AA member that might want more info can email me...). A couple weeks ago he worked a club gig as the guitarist in a backing band supporting former Miles Davis bassist Michael Henderson.
So, although not a “professional” musician like yourself, he’s a semi-professional, very accomplished and talented guitarist, singer and writer. Do you ACTUALLY think his musical contributions, talents and painstaking efforts and contributions are any less relevant, any less REAL playing with the Hip-Hop band than with the other bands? At that point is it no longer "one hell of an accomplishment"? Even though it “Doesn't matter what type of music it is.”
I suppose the answer is yes, since you don’t consider Hip-Hop to be music.
I know for a fact that my friend is not the only musician playing music in a Hip-Hop band.
I still think you should just admit you just plain don’t like Hip-Hop.
Paris Hilton?
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
If what you call "music" is performed by a "musician" that contains no melody, no musical instruments, and no singing, only talking, a drum machine and a VERY under-damped, high "Q" bass, then I cannot and will not consider that music. Nothing "Musical" about it. YOU can call it anything you like, Ok? If you follow it thru to it's logical conclusion, just as 3 chord rock-n-roll from the 50's HAD to evolve (how many 3 chord songs can one possibly write before they start sounding the same?) it also holds true for Rap. It will be interesting to see how many "Rappers" have the musical talent to evolve.
suit your narrow-minded views, are presumptous, contradict your previous statements and would seem to be a hypocrite.If your career as a "professional" musician bottoms out, you'd probably have a rosy future in politics, or organized religion...
Fine. So certain types of 20th century classical, free jazz, Avant Garde and experimental musics, amongst others I'm not thinking of at the moment, don't merit as music by your definition then either? Basically anything you can't hum along to, is that what it is?
"Doesn't matter what type of music it is. It's one hell of an accomplishment.”
You should ammend that to "no matter what type of music it is, by my definition of what music is..." and "one hell of an acomplishment DEPENDING what type of music is being played"
BTW, the Hip Hop band my friend plays/played music with uses a real, live, human drummer, so you can yet again redefine your definition(s)
(because, let's face it, your definitions seem to be in constant flux to suit your purpose) of Hip-Hop, or rap, as you prefer to call it.It must a pleasant place, your world.
Paris Hilton?
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yHBAEk1RM8
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