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The attached story seems appropriate as regards the FINALLY! thread below. It won't change the ostrichs' position's, enlighten the ignorant (does anything, ever?), explain possible declining Hip-Hop sales or maybe even interest you, but there it is...Does the acceptance of Hip-Hop by Academics lend any credence to the art form? Does it need to? "Actually, according to Ginwright, business schools began studying hip-hop before it surfaced in the humanities." That sure doesn't help, nor does the semi-professional writing of the author, but it IS the S.F. Chronicle, where that has become the "norm". I suppose they can only afford a couple professionals there, budgetwise.
BTW, the referenced book by Rickey Vincent: "Funk: The Music, the People, and the Rhythm of the One" is excellent for anyone wanting to explore the subject of the Funk.
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
Follow Ups:
Hiphop includes wider elements that just that rap music.
Originally there were 4 elements to hip hop. B-boys, remember
breakdancing? Djs playing,mixing becoming connoiseurs of recorded
music, MCs to "rock the party" and graffiti artists. Rap music was the
only element that could be easily commercialized and made pop for
cash and that is what most of it has become. Hip hop has become
pop music and lots of money has been been made and will be made.
It may not be "music" in the eyes of some but lots of things have
not been music, it's all subjective.Dylan stopped being real music becuase he plugged his guitar in.
Psychedelica was never real music because it was just for kids on drugs.
Disco was never real music because it was too gay,too black too urban.
Punk was never real music because it was a bunch of english hacks.
New wave was never real music it was an art school side project.
Jazz was never real music just that boogie woogie dance music.
Eric Satie got thrown in jail for using typewriters and foghorns, not real music.
Berlioz caused a riot in 1838 because what he made was not music.
If it's taboo to cite music for its qualities and deficiencies at a purely musical or artistic angle, we might as well have to accept the notion that Barney the Dinosaur performing one of his songs is an equal to Furtwangler and the Berlin Philharmonic performing Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.
Equating Barney and Berlin Philharmonic based on artistic merit would
be as silly as comparing them on popularity. Barney vs Furtwangler is
simply a strawman argument.
but definitely if you have ever heard Barney conduct Beethoven, he is far better than Furtwangler. He records with the London Symphony.
musetap,
I am hardly an "ostrich" nor am I ignorant when it comes to music. I can appreciate any artist that has taken the initiative to learn to play a musical instrument, ANY instrument, had inspiration to write lyrics and a melody, painstakingly record said work, etc... because I know how very difficult that is. Doesn't matter what type of music it is. It's one hell of an accomplishment. Please don't mistake my comments for ignorance, as I can wholeheartedly assure you I am not. If you want to call rap/hip hop a poetry of sorts, thats fine. Music, it is not. I look at it more along the lines of calling Paris Hilton an "Actress" ok?
> I can appreciate any artist that has taken the initiative to learn to play a musical instrument, ANY instrument, had inspiration to write lyrics and a melody, painstakingly record said work, etc... because I know how very difficult that is.Any artist?
I cannot agree with this completely. I could name names all day long, but let's just say that there are people who view music as music, and then there are people who view music as product. Some understand that it can be & is often both of these, depending on one's point of view. But my feeling is that the ability to execute these tasks you mention is something you're overstating here, especially when examined in conjunction with what you've had to say about rap music--that's right, MUSIC--for years now.
The way I see it, it's even harder to write lyrics & melody when there's NO inspiration than when there is, but, in spite of that hard work, I often do NOT appreciate work I consider to be lacking in inspiration...which indicates that it may have very well been much harder to create than the work of someone who WAS inspired. And since we all know that an artist has their whole life to write their first album & six months to write their second...that lack of inspiration sometimes, or OFTEN, strikes artists who begin careers at a time in their lives when music is a passion, and at some point find themselves in a place where it is merely a job.
But none of these are the end-all or be-all. A talent who's burned-out & cynical who feels they have run out of ways to express ideas may still toss off an album of paint-by-numbers fakery that some would laud as a transitional gem. Others might disagree, but then there may also be a lack of consensus on the polished, guest-producer- & guest-performer-laden, ghost- (sorry, CO-) written debut of a well-connected phenom...whose numbers will likely well surpass those of the gritty, intense, personal, deep, emotional artistic statement of the less-talented but up-&-coming obscuro who poured blood, sweat, & tears, and in many cases some measure of sacrifice, into a piece of work that may succeed for many on certain levels, but whose toons simply don't connect with folks who think they heard similar stuff done better decades ago by performers that today's young lions may never even have heard, yet managed to virtually copy something they didn't know existed. Ah, but there are no absolutes, which, again, is why I have to disagree with what you've written. Now, this is a more difficult argument to put forth without naming names, but it's more demanding, and therefore a more interesting exercise. Which I justify by remembering my view that music is worth taking seriously...and some of the best discussion comes from trying to convince the last dozen or so people on the planet who think they have a license to define what it is on the basis of one segment of it that they do not like, that they are neither capable, nor qualified, of forcing others to accept that definition, which is inaccurate at best.
Neither music nor the reactions to it are created in scientists' laboratories or on accountants' spreadsheets, so one must allow for exceptions to the rules, and those exceptions can be quite powerful. Which is why I'll argue for the less than 5% of rap music I've heard that I like rather than bother with caring about the 95% of it that I've heard that I think sucks rocks.
On that basis, unless you're a zealot with a complete lack of insight when it comes to contemporary pop and rock music, there may be reasons to consider a rap album 'better' in various ways, than a cynically conceived project that has more to do with looks & choreography than it does with what could reasonably be described as an organic creative process...oh, perish the thought. That decisions about how to market music are made at least in part on the basis of looks & choreography don't matter, because you appreciate anyone who plays an instrument, writes a song & makes a record. The rapper, who you have now generously chosen to refer to as a poet, the one who may well have more musical inspiration than you're aware of since you still seem to think there is no rapper who actually knows how to play an instrument or write a melody? That piece of work will always be inferior, not even to be considered as music, you maintain...even while you celebrate, through yr appreciation, the work of the well-connected and/or well-produced.
Meanwhile, on a couple of occasions I've taken heat from the Music board on this site for taking issue with the dismissals of others towards a certain fellow whose initials are BW. Maybe you didn't see those threads. It's a shame, because you would've found yrself on the opposite side of an argument regarding a form of music you're as appreciative of, as you are negative of this one you are here heaping scorn upon. It would've been instructive to be in the position of defending something you find great virtue in, in a discussion with people I would describe as knowledgeable, including at least one who happens to be a working pro. Not that they were as scornful in those discussions as you are towards this form of music, but then it would be silly to draw a musical comparison.
The attitude, however, is strikingly similar.
Do you not care that it looks simply foolish to carry this silly chip on yr shoulder as you do? Why would you assign this so much importance? And why would you be gleeful about a report that potentially bodes great ill for music in general, certainly the music business, not just the one segment of it you personally find unworthy? I mean, it doesn't take a genius to realize that declining sales figures across the board means less money spent on new projects, period. Fewer rap records selling isn't a sign of a renaissance in taste, it's a symptom of an unhealthy industry, for which any remaining profitability outlook exists in spite of itself. Guys like Steve Jobs recognize this; guys who think that it's wise to force Microsoft to pay a fee if someone purchases a piece of their hardware do not.
You are also ignoring those involved with rap music who do play instruments, who use melodies, who possess a pair of ears. We've been on this merry-go-round before. Why do you insist on continuing to take yr subjective view to an irrational extreme? You don't like it. We get it. You're entitled.
But you're not entitled to define something for the rest of us that's just plain wrong.
> Music, it is not.Incorrect. Please explain how you chart something that is not music. If it can be charted, you'll have to accept that it's music whether you like it or not.
> I look at it more along the lines of calling Paris Hilton an "Actress" ok?But, she IS an actress. Or WAS an actress. Hell, IFC had the movie Wonderland on the other night, and there she was, in a movie. Doesn't mean she's not a BAD actress, but you can't say that she's NOT when the evidence exists that she has in fact done what one must do to technically be referred to as such.
If you had the chance, would you seriously have tried to tell Miles Davis that rap is not music?
Paris Hilton is to "Acting" what Rap/Hip hop is to "Music" and what Montell Williams is to hair products.
"Any artist?"
Yes J.....ANY artist. Ask anyone who has ever written a song from scratch, wrote the melody, chord progressions, bass lines, vocal harmonies, backing instrumental tracks and went into a studio and pull it off sounding like a cohesive production how much work is involved. Talking over a drum machine is NOT the same thing, sorry. Not even close.
Here is a rocking video from Merzbow. Now this is music.
If it can be charted, it is music.Period.
I don't have to ask anyone about this, I've been involved with both. I know more about what you're talking about than you seem to think I do, and you obviously know less about what you're dismissing than you think you do.
Again I ask, would you have even dared spout this crap at Miles Davis? Or perhaps you don't know anything about the Doo-Bop album?
Ya know what J? You and I have been thru this before and i'm un-interested in going there with you again. You guys (the record buying public) know best. I concede that to you ok? After all, it was the all knowing well informed record buying public that launched Milli-Vanilli to the top of the charts and handed a coveted Grammy for "Don't worry, be happy" Those are but two of a plethora of choices by the well informed record buying public. STILL think EITHER of those great choices were the right ones?
Aloha
NT
whereas previously I was just vaguely interested and amused. I really am trying to just let this go, yet it...lingers...and I can't possibly figure out WHY I'm concerned about your opinion or POV...anyway:I didn't specifically refer to you as any of those, and, in fact, directly replied to you in the referenced thread. (Ostrich was supposed to be plural, but may have come out possessive because I misplaced the ‘. Whatever...) That doesn't mean those particularly dismal displays aren't readily apparent in posts in the Finally! thread below, which you may have initiated, but certainly aren't the only contributor to, as there are over 80 posts in that thread. However, you’re certainly free to interpret any references as you see fit.
I don't necessarily think you're ignorant, though you certainly seem to be in some state of denial, for whatever reason. If you choose to disregard an established and recognized musical form as music, to not acknowledge it as such, that's your choice. Obviously you're not alone, and it certainly does no harm to the music.
“I can appreciate any artist that has taken the initiative to learn to play a musical instrument, ANY instrument, had inspiration to write lyrics and a melody, painstakingly record said work, etc... because I know how very difficult that is. Doesn't matter what type of music it is. It's one hell of an accomplishment.”
So, a long time friend of mine has played in various bands for 18-20 years, plays in an Afro-pop group, a jazz/experimental ensemble and has played on and off for an extended time with a pretty well known (and controversial) Hip-Hop band . All these bands have recorded and have releases out and he’s toured the USA and played gigs in several European countries with the J/E and the HH bands (out of respect for him I’m not going to mention his name or the bands, but they are all pretty well known. Any AA member that might want more info can email me...). A couple weeks ago he worked a club gig as the guitarist in a backing band supporting former Miles Davis bassist Michael Henderson.
So, although not a “professional” musician like yourself, he’s a semi-professional, very accomplished and talented guitarist, singer and writer. Do you ACTUALLY think his musical contributions, talents and painstaking efforts and contributions are any less relevant, any less REAL playing with the Hip-Hop band than with the other bands? At that point is it no longer "one hell of an accomplishment"? Even though it “Doesn't matter what type of music it is.”
I suppose the answer is yes, since you don’t consider Hip-Hop to be music.
I know for a fact that my friend is not the only musician playing music in a Hip-Hop band.
I still think you should just admit you just plain don’t like Hip-Hop.
Paris Hilton?
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
If what you call "music" is performed by a "musician" that contains no melody, no musical instruments, and no singing, only talking, a drum machine and a VERY under-damped, high "Q" bass, then I cannot and will not consider that music. Nothing "Musical" about it. YOU can call it anything you like, Ok? If you follow it thru to it's logical conclusion, just as 3 chord rock-n-roll from the 50's HAD to evolve (how many 3 chord songs can one possibly write before they start sounding the same?) it also holds true for Rap. It will be interesting to see how many "Rappers" have the musical talent to evolve.
suit your narrow-minded views, are presumptous, contradict your previous statements and would seem to be a hypocrite.If your career as a "professional" musician bottoms out, you'd probably have a rosy future in politics, or organized religion...
Fine. So certain types of 20th century classical, free jazz, Avant Garde and experimental musics, amongst others I'm not thinking of at the moment, don't merit as music by your definition then either? Basically anything you can't hum along to, is that what it is?
"Doesn't matter what type of music it is. It's one hell of an accomplishment.”
You should ammend that to "no matter what type of music it is, by my definition of what music is..." and "one hell of an acomplishment DEPENDING what type of music is being played"
BTW, the Hip Hop band my friend plays/played music with uses a real, live, human drummer, so you can yet again redefine your definition(s)
(because, let's face it, your definitions seem to be in constant flux to suit your purpose) of Hip-Hop, or rap, as you prefer to call it.It must a pleasant place, your world.
Paris Hilton?
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yHBAEk1RM8
By all means the folks below should have the opportunity to indulge in anti-academic rants.But it's dumb to generalize about "academia," and it's dumber to conflate studying something with approving it. You can study anything that goes on in the world -- disease, violence, children's literature, flea markets, panhandling, salamanders, science fiction, financial crises. The question is whether you produce good or bad work about what you study.
There's always going to be a gap between being a fan of a kind of music or part of a youth scene, and studying it, and you inevitably look silly if you try to play both roles at once.
"There's always going to be a gap between being a fan of a kind of music or part of a youth scene, and studying it, and you inevitably look silly if you try to play both roles at once."Maybe the problem is the music today no longer transcends the youth scene like the music of the past.
Could be, though I remember in my youth-culture days, getting on for 30 years ago, punk was pretty polarizing -- part of the fun was pissing off the heavy-metal followers and the remaining hippies.
.....
nt
I've personally never understood the "rapper" mentality, and those who have tried to do so seem to be way off the mark.I think the biggest mistake outsiders have made toward rap and the hip-hop community is failing to realize that rap isn't really intended to be a musical artform, but a high-effective conduit for getting messages to a lot of people. This is what the rappers themselves claim. And once viewed in that light, we realize the simple rhythms are mostly for attention (note that "unplugged rap" doesn't exist), and remain simple to hold attention, yet avoid distraction from the message.
And since this does cater to the desperate, the offensive lyrics and style seem more bearable. Although I do think it's divisive because it has been sending the community's youth a lot of what I think are the wrong messages. And messages that I think will perpetuate or exacerbate the despair, rather than curtail it. I think the ultimate key is whether a rapper with a Martin Luther King vision comes forth. For that's the only tangible solution to break the community's shackles of despair. The motivation must come from within. For outsiders who try their darndest to understand the community's needs have been, as I stated, way off the mark.
In regard to academics, the whole deal has grown into intellectualism merely for the sake of being intellectual. But when they have to apply their institutional knowledge to the real world, there's a disconnect between theory and what actually works. And I think this is true for those trying to understand digital signal processing as much as for those trying to understand the hip-hop community.
"note that "unplugged rap" doesn't exist"
eh... not so fast, some people like to call it poetry... Don't make me beat you with a beatnik.
I also enjoyed Vincent's book, but I feel he worships at the altar of P-Funk and George Clinton a bit too much. A more balanced history of funk with more time spent on early funk music, would have made it a better book. A good read regardless.
a few years ago academics were finding profundity in Madonna--and not just in what she stood for. Some of 'em were sure she was a genius.Academia is irrelevant.
N/T
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
I'd rather be locked in an isolation tank and forced to listen to Master P over and over again, forever, than have to read an article like that e again.
.
. . . classical audiences would be hugely enjoying the hyper-serial style our academic composers have purveyed lo these many years.Actual audiences formed a different opinion, and the "academic" style of composition lives on only in academia.
Now, before you go and start slinging disparaging names around for folks whose tastes differ from yours again, I ask you to consider: no matter what kind of music you adore, and no matter how legitimate or wise your reasons for adoring it are, there will be folks to can't bear it.
I urge you to learn to live with it. And I would urge those who would disparage the music you like to grant you your tastes as well. After all, it's only music.
BTW, thanks for the funk reference; I'll be on the lookout for it, so long as it isn't written from an "academic" perspective. ;-)
"Now, before you go and start slinging disparaging names around for folks whose tastes differ from yours again, I ask you to consider: no matter what kind of music you adore, and no matter how legitimate or wise your reasons for adoring it are, there will be folks to can't bear it."The key is whenever someone bashes music that you like, if you're comfortable with what you like enough to take such talk with a grain of salt.
I hear people bash my faves all the time. I view it like a great sports team being hated by rival sports fans. For those who are truly mediocre are rarely bashed. Just ignored.
"Academic approbation"? Like when you could take a humanities class at UC Santa Cruz and get credit for frisbee tossing? I just thought the article and timing were interesting in conjunction with the recent thread on the supposed decline of Hip-Hop sales and the insuing brouhaha that entailed. Really nothing more, nothing less. Recognition of Hip-Hop by the Academics probably means a lot more to some who would place a particular "value" on that than it means to me..."Now, before you go and start slinging disparaging names around for folks whose tastes differ from yours again,"
Wherein did I do that?!?! I believe you have me confused with someone else...
" I ask you to consider: no matter what kind of music you adore, and no matter how legitimate or wise your reasons for adoring it are, there will be folks to can't bear it."
I have no problem with that, it's those that are so intolerent of different forms of music and art that they refuse to recognize it AS a legitimate an art/music form, mostly just through shear biligerance accompanied with sputtering bile. BTW, I by NO MEANS adore Hip-Hop, just have enough respect for the (relatively) small portion of it that has complete and justifiable artistic merit to RATE that recognition, whether from someone as insignificant as me or any person that can appreciate music from the past several decades.
"I urge you to learn to live with it. And I would urge those who would disparage the music you like to grant you your tastes as well. After all, it's only music."
I live VERY fine with it, thank you for your concern. "It's only music" seems a rather bland way to sum up what most people partake in these boards about/for. If it was "only" methinks we would all be pursueing some other hobby/passion. Crossword puzzles perhaps? Knitting? Music is art, art inspires passion. No two (or even five or 13) ways about that! The thread below, regarding possibly paying to listen to a $100,000 system? You think people will be listening to spoken word recordings on it? Doubt it...
"BTW, thanks for the funk reference; I'll be on the lookout for it, so long as it isn't written from an "academic" perspective. ;-)"
It's a very well written and researched book, not bogged-down by an "academic perspective", and captures the vibrancy of the music while putting it into a proper historical perpective. A historical. 20th century musical perspective that many (The Deniers) in these boards seem either unfamiliar with or are just plain unwilling to acknowledge.
You , of course are not included amongst them.
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
markrohr wrote:
"Now, before you go and start slinging disparaging names around for folks whose tastes differ from yours again,"musetap replied:
"Wherein did I do that?!?! I believe you have me confused with someone else..."No. I believe you have you confused with someone else. In your original post, you said:
"It won't change the ostrichs' position's, enlighten the ignorant (does anything, ever?)"
You are referring to those who disagree with your views as "ostrichs'" (sic) and "ignorant". I don't know how much clearer it gets. And then you say, in response to Mark's observation that there will always be people who hate the type of music you like:
"I live VERY fine with it, thank you for your concern."
If you lived so well with people disagreeing with your views about this type of music, you would never have made your original post to begin with. But in a thread that you originated, you're referring to those who disagree with you as "ostriches" and "ignorant", then denying that you have a problem with them. The conflict there is painfully obvious to me.
First, there were/are some pretty ignorant statements made in the FINALLY! thread I refered to. I'm not sure how to refer to ignorant statements in a manner that isn't "disparaging", but if you possibly have some way to refering to ignorant phrases, by using a term other than ignorant, you're much more PC than I, and possibly even a better person. Congratulations.I'm not refering to those that disagree with me as ostrichs'. That's what I feel is an accurate discription of someone that just plain refuses to accept something that is recognized by, well, probably tens of millions of people as something that is a legitimate entity. Hip-Hop as music is an example. Global warming is an example. Some people refuse to accept or recognize these. Ostrich is a fairly beign term to describe them, as "disparaging" as the word might seem to you, and I don't believe an inaccurate one. Denying something exists, having your head buried in the sand pretending it doesn't exist, doesn't NOT make it exist. Well, maybe to 5 year olds for a limited amount of time.
Here's a link to a post I think is pretty ignorant. You need not share my view on that, but that does NOT mean I don't think it contains much ignorance, so therefore must BE ignorant. Now, perhaps I could find a term other than ignorant to describe something that IS ignorant, but if the shoe fits, why be ignorant and ignore it?
BTW, there have been a couple posts on both this thread and the FINALLY! thread, oh, you did read that thread, right? since you're commenting on my post that refers to it? - that have "disappeared". Even you, and perhaps markrohr, might have agreed that there was, alas! ignorance present in those "disappeared" posts, and possibly in some of the remaining posts.
What you seem completely unclear about is that anyone, at any time can disagree with me and my views or opinions. I'm not at all insecure about that, it's a healthy thing that I'm fine with and it's something that makes this great place what it is an I don't "flip out" over such things. I only made my original post to state that denying that a music that is recognized as music, that fits every definition of music is music, whether the poster thinks and accepts that so or not.
Did you even read that post? Somehow I doubt it...
I may have misinterpreted makrohr's references of disparaging words in the post you reference because I really don't consider then disparaging, only accurate. So my apologies for that. If you find something else to nitpick about, just let me know and I'll be glad to address it!
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
wish I could find the other one...
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
I decided not to bother.
"Now, before you go and start slinging disparaging names around for folks whose tastes differ from yours again,"Your "again" had me thinking you were refering to some PREVIOUS post, since I was refering to a previous post. So, excuse my confusion there, I wasn't trying to sidestep my comments.
As regards disparaging, I've said plenty about it in my response to Andy_C in the above post. Yes, I can see where some words/names I use can be construed as disparaging. Such is life.
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
.
"the academy needs hip-hop more than hip-hop needs the academy."
Academia has to struggle to be relevent in this day and age and
examining hip-hop from the acedemic pov instantly gives the
illusion of modern relevence not to Hip-Hop but to academia.I want to see a paper on this video.
(parent advisory contains strong language and laughable chiches)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CLfVXPKDcc
...is take one look at the comments entered by viewers and you'd KNOW why hip-hop and rap are in decline. Their audience is, basically, illiterate. And proud of it. Most of those guys will be cleaning my swimming pool and weeding my garden in a year or so. If they're *lucky*, I might even let 'em wash and wax my fly ride.And, the BEST part is that they won't know that their last paycheck from me was short by $75 because they can't even do simple math. Keep on rappin', dumbasses, it's music 2 my ears...
Who do you think buys most of the rap and hip-hop albums sold? Particularly the albums that you likely would find to be the most vile and without merit? Historically, it has been white, suburban youth. Although the adequacy of many of their math and literacy skills could be questioned, I don't think that is who you had in mind with your comments.
what was once said of Duke Ellington and other "jungle music" players. So tell me, did Satchmo wax your Grandpappy's ride? Or maybe your old man just used his pillow clothe, you know, the one with the two small holes.
completely, and all its implications.
I'd give it a C for effort and a D for content. It's up there with those mysterious, artsy -if you don't get this you're just not...hip - perfume/cologne/ smelly stuff commercials...Looks like those guys may have taken the "buisness" course!
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
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