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In Reply to: Re: "playing softer causes the instrument to lose its dynamics" posted by STUART on March 3, 2007 at 08:34:42:
>Depending on the type of music played on themExactly. We're in an era dominated by the sensibilities of rock music, which has led to a culture of drummers who hit too hard.
>wouldnt John B. of Led Zepplin looked dumb to play
with traditional grip and tap the drums?
Led Zep also had a huge dynamic range with the style of music they playedThey also weren't an amateur garage band who thought it was cool to play loud just because they could; Page was a guy who knew how to not play too loud.
>One of the striking things about a great rock act is the ability
of the band to play a huge dynamic range
When a band like that gets very quiet and in an instant comes out
with a HUGE dynamic crash ..thats what I believe really moves
people in a live concertI've seen acts with that ability I loathe & seen acts who couldn't do that if their lives depended on it I thought were great. One of the striking things about a great rock act for me is the ability to write songs that connect with listeners & perform them at least credibly on a stage.
>There are a ton of em and the most dynamic acts I believe
move people the most and really give an impressionWe listen for different things in music. The acts you named created material that does not interest me. And I'd rather see an hour of music I like & skip the last half hour or whatever if the volume annoys me than sit through two hours of a range of dynamics explored by musicians performing material that is of no interest to me.
>I believe thats one of the attactions of fireworksI disagree with the use of the analogy. Music and fireworks are two different things.
>Those plastic shields are there for one reason and that is
to get the stage volume down...period.I don't want to sound to harsh, but while in some cases its use is logistically understandable, to me this is a somewhat lazy manner in which to reduce stage volume. Mark's point about the drum heads makes more sense, but in any case, I have an old-school sensibility on this that says turn it down until you achieve a good organic stage mix. Mark also made a comment about stage techs, who in my view often overstate their own importance & would often be better served miking nothing except vocals & maybe drums. Not in a good-sized club, of course, but while technology has enabled sound equipment to do more in smaller packages as time goes on, I still don't see too many PAs that are capable of succeeding at their intent when you're talking about running every piece on stage through speakers that are smaller than the average 50 watt guitar combo amp. But that's just me.
>I am a drummerI'm a guy who's played with too many drummers that perform well when they hit too hard but don't when called on to exercise a little self-discipline & pull back just a bit. The drummers I've played with who are capable of doing this without losing dynamics or the feel or the groove showed me it can be done. I'm aware not everyone possesses the same skills, but my belief is that drummers generally like to hit hard, don't mind that the rest of the band has to play louder to be heard...but then unless you go over the line that separates pros from non-pros, drummers generally care about their timekeeping less than they care about other aspects of drumming. That's a byproduct of the culture of the rock era, for better or worse--but don't get me wrong, unlike Mark I've done far more playing in that area than any other. I just happen to believe that the rock era has skewed certain priorities when it comes to how people approach their craft.
Follow Ups:
You said..........Page was a guy who knew how to not play too loud.
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...wrong went the buzzer
....Two 100watt marshall stacks through sixteen 12's
Have you ever stood next to a setup like that?
Your pant legs move from the air moving
Actually its pretty impressive to stand next to and feel it
Page played very loud and used dynamics in his playing because
its a feel thing and the other musicians on stage playing
the feel thing with him
The fireworks comparision was sound of almost absolute nothing
to a loud crash bang or boom and that comparison was to a
band using dynamicsIt had nothing to do with music...just dynamics
Huge dynamics make an impression to an audience
Classical, rock, jazz, country, polkas you name it
Also alot of musicians wear earplugs on stage
I know that for a fact and I wear them and have for years
Not all musicians have a hearing loss and ringing ears
Again...the plastic shield is to help bring the stage volume
down without the drummer having to tap the drums and lose the feel
on stage.A jazz trio dosnt have the stage volume issue that rock/country and
other electric bands haveYou use the plastic shield according to your needs to get that
stage volume down in small venues
My feeling is that a guy who plays too loud is one who doesn't understand dynamics. Page's stage setup is something I would characterize as not being too loud for that particular band. I do believe that his years of experience as a session/studio professional instilled in him the knowledge and experience that enables one to know when they are playing too loud. Yes, I've felt the physical effect of a setup like that at close range. Page was unfortunately followed by many who liked the volume aspect but seemed to fail to grasp other aspects of sound on a stage. I would disagree with the notion that he didn't know what was too loud--in that particular band.The problem lies with the followers who helped create a culture that was somewhat devoid of understanding how volume can wreak havoc on the dynamics, and I believe this is evident in the culture of live rock music.
> Huge dynamics make an impression to an audienceCertainly not all audiences. Dynamics means nothing to me if I do not think much of the material.
> Also alot of musicians wear earplugs on stage
> I know that for a fact and I wear them and have for yearsI have as well.
> Again...the plastic shield is to help bring the stage volume
down without the drummer having to tap the drums and lose the feel
on stage.Again...my feeling is that a drummer should be able to execute his parts without hitting terribly hard. I realize that's often not the case, but I've seen drummers use Hot Rods to greater effect than I've ever seen a shield used, especially since it puts up a physical barrier on a stage that can create a feeling of detachment that I find to be at least somewhat detrimental to nonverbal & intangible communication that takes place between players on a stage.
I know that in some cases the plastic shield is the best option. But I think that it can sometimes be overused & buries characteristics that are helpful to the feel generated by players on a stage.
Do you really think that a plastic shield is a better option than Hot Rods?
Just like brushes are used for certain applications so are hot rodsI have used hot rods for certain things
Besides the things fall apart easy and they suck on cymbals/crashes
You cant get a good bell ride sound out of the things and ride
cymbal stuff kinda gets washyThey work ok on the high hat though
They do have the plastic shields that only come up a couple of
feet so the drummer isnt completely buried behind a shieldIf you wanted to use a large shield having a good monitor system
is a must for the drummer as well
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