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I've been waiting to read this wayyyyyyy toooooo long. My appologies to those of you that, for whatever reason, like this stuff (I refuse to call it music)
Follow Ups:
Don’t believe the down trend…It’s only a “correction”
seems to happen with most genres not just rap.Elvis, Led Zeppelin, Nirvana, Metallica etc...
"money (and drugs) screws up the artistic process"Myself not a proponent of booger sugar (thank you very much). But listening to Big Mac's 'Tusk', one can hear the effects on the rhythm and harmony. And I don't mean in a negative fashion, just the lay and direction of the music.
The shame is it was mastered digitally (a true crying one at that). Maybe if they weren't spun, things woulda been diff in the mastering suite? But alas, they were not the only ones seduced by digital technophilia. I do tend to think many contemporary artists (say 1970 onward) have a run of about three albums before they have nothing worthwhile to say. Of course certainly some stellar exceptions to that perception/rule (Thank G*d).
You can only write so many tunes about the nice ride you got from being a rap star (or drug dealer) and the good times "y'all" are having in "da club".Then again, those who reside in the lower regions of "da barrel" also need something they can relate to, I guess...
I just think it's funny when spoiled white kids from the suburbs are "relating" to a street-wise gangsta-rappa from "da hood".
Hey kid. Your pants are falling off. Are those your dads? You really should return those to him at once... otherwise he'll be late for work.
Sheesh.
Ah the good old days. When "Yo-Yo" was a TOY and not a GREETING.
rw
Strange that Fox News would only focus on that aspect of it. I wonder why?
s
read a Rolling Stone article a couple a weeks ago about the overall decline and thought the numbers overall were about the same.Can't say I'm surprised that segment of the industry is lagging as more than any other segment - though there's plenty to go around - it seems to have become a caricature of itself.
...we might likewise be unburdened of "country" music.
nt
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config ... but always looking for cost effective improvements
"western" music too? I like both types as long as the vintage is correct...
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
Hmmm. I wonder how Charlie Parker would've reacted to such a musing.
seems to have failed him. Next he'll be saying there's no intgelligence in Intelligent Chips.
z
I replied to you directly and never said anything about whether or not you are open-minded. If you consider my posts in this thread to constitute apoplexy, then we see things even more differently than I thought.I suppose I have to ask you directly, so I will. What do YOU think Charlie Parker would have thought of the suggestion that, after exposing the already-exposed (if not over-exposed) obviousness of the negatives of the music featured in the story (which spoke to me more about sales than about music ), the OP should concentrate his energies of ridding the world of music that Parker himself found to be inspirational?
I pose this assuming that you are not dismissive of the accomplishments of Parker, his status as a well-regarded, innovative and influential instrumentalist, and his improvisational ability.
...in the SF Bay Area playing '70s, 80s and 90's music (KMAX - in the "jack" format) switched to a country format yesterday without notice.Should be a law.
Important distinction to be made here. There's decent country--and then there's the stuff they play on the radio. FWIW, I dont listen much to either. But one is respectable and the other appalling.
> But one is respectable and the other appalling.That could be said about every form of music. Country ranges from the legendary Hank Williams material all the way to music for pickup truck commercials. I'd take Harlan Howard's "Beyond the Blue Horizon" (with a lot of great covers available) any day of the week over some of the tripe that has been passed off as serious classical or jazz. No form of music has a monopoly on either greatness or garbage.
For better or worse, much of the music and radio business is about making money and there has never been a lock-step relationship between popularity and quality, though they are not mutually exclusive, either.
..
a
You will hate whatever becomes popular after rap even more than you hate rap.Why?
Because you'll be even older and thus even more intolerant and out of touch.
.
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A lot of the Death To Disco crowd roared approval when disco died, only to be faced with rap. :)I can't quite generate the level of intolerance I used to. I guess I own enough music software that I can always escape that which I don't like.
and seem to feel some sort of vindication. Hope the next "big thing" in popular music agrees more with you. Chances of THAT happening are rather nil though, considering that most popular music is crap in one form or another, and that few of the artists that partake of it actually create something worthwhile and lasting. If you're hoping for a new cycle of singer/songwriters or popular vocalists, let's hope they have more to offer than Gilbert O'Sullivan, Mac Davis, Pat Boone, Jim Reeves, or Celine Dion, etc.I'm a firm believer in the 80%-20% rule when it comes to popular music, based on being familiar with close to 100 years of its' recorded history, and my personal taste of course. Hell, you ever listened to what Thomas Edison released?
Public Enemy, The Coup, Afrika Bambaataa, Run-DMC, Cypress Hill, Grandmaster Flash and FF, Mos Def, Queen Latifa, N.W.A., Wu Tang Clan, RZA are just a few of the artists I think have made an everlasting contribution to this music form. There's probably more, but I'm not much into Hip-Hop. Like any genre of music, most of it is crap, but what's good is GOOD.
One exception may be electronica (especially drum and bass....snore...), but that's just my opinion.
The way popular musical trends shift, don't be surprised if two years from now you'll be yearning for the good old days of rap!
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
like that's supposed to validate what 'proper' music stands for! LOL!If rap and hip-hop stayed in the basements and clubs as a pure underground movement, it would be herald decades from now as a legitimate art form. But since it's been thrust in your face(s); it's vulgar, trash, dismissible..
give me a break..
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I'm one of the old dinosaurs that likes opera and classical music. You can ridicule classical music as being of interest only to old snobs, but the fact that it's still being played, listened to, and bought 50 - 300 years after it was written should tell you something. (Do you really think that people will still be listening to this year's top hip-hop music in 2207? - I really doubt it.)If anyone is interested in learning more about classical, I have some brief suggestions. - First, there are lots of classical pieces that are exciting, easy to listen to, harmonic, dynamic, and obviously great music. But there are other classical works that are only so-so, and there are some that are of interest only to those having a particular interest in a particular style or composer, etc. So, how do you sort them out? My suggestion is that you simply start with those that are played and recorded the most often. - The "top 100" of the classic repertoire, etc. It may sound simplistic, but it's a practicable, workable approach for someone beginning to appreciate classical music.
Second, if you have never listened to a particular classical work before, it's to be expected that it might sound strange and somewhat confusing the first time you hear it. My suggestion is that you listen to one or two pieces several times over a period of time. For example, listen to a particular work several times on successive days. I think you will be surprised at how a particular piece begins to grow on you over a period of time as you get into it.
Third, listen exclusively (don't try to listen to classical while also reading the paper, watching TV, etc.) on a reasonably good audio system played at a reasonably high volume level. (There are often wide ranges in sound level, and you can't hear the softer portions if you play it like background music.)
Obviously, YMMD. The advice and suggestions are free of charge.
"(Do you really think that people will still be listening to this year's top hip-hop music in 2207? - I really doubt it.)"Who are you to place judgement as to whether something will be listened to long after you're dead and buried?
I'm fairly sure people said the same thing about Grandmaster Flash, Melly Mel and the Furious Five. Who was inaugurated into the RROHF recently?
"(Do you really think that people will still be listening to this year's top hip-hop music in 2207? - I really doubt it.)"
Who are you to place judgement as to whether something will be listened to long after you're dead and buried?
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--I have as much right to "place judgement" as anyone. Who are YOU to place judgement on my tastes and opinions?
I'm fairly sure people said the same thing about Grandmaster Flash, Melly Mel and the Furious Five. Who was inaugurated into the RROHF recently?
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Inauguration into the RROHF isn't relevant to this discussion. The question I raised wasn't which group was currently popular; it was which group or music would be popular 50-200 years from now.
just not opera.I agree nothing can stir, move, energize an emotion like a good classical piece.
I just take offense to people that criticize rap and/or hip hop as not having any merit.
I'd submit to the folks that denegrate rap that if you were to compare the opera catalogs to those of rap, I'd wonder to the amount of references there are to death and murder comparably. Of course you won't find many (if any) references to 'slappin bitches' in opera, but I'm sure that went on even 300 years ago nonetheless.
Personally I don't make it a point to listen to rap. There are a few artist however that have some merit IMO.
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to the nearest shitter and puke my guts out! How in the world anyone can interpret this as 'music' I'll never know..BUT I will conceed that 'I don't get it', much like other music forms. But I will NEVER claim it's not 'art'.
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How does locker room poetry( Junior High School at that) set to stolen music( you say sampled I say stolen) rate as an art form?!?!?
Artists and those who enjoy art are always reinterpretting thier relationships with artifacts of the creative process, hence, works such as the cow dung virgin mary piece. Neither the artists nor the patrons can actually define "art" with any resolute universality becuase the framework and potential examples are constantly changing. the semantics of "art" are a moving target.Punk music, in similar fashion to Hip Hop, began as a question of "artist". Does one need training in music to create music? Does one need training in music to enjoy music? I don't know how to play your stupid fancy guitar, but I've got something to say through noises I make with my piece of shit guitar...If music as an art form is considered to be an expressionistic endeavor, then it follows that ANYONE who feels or emotes has the ability to create some art.
Now, the real question here is not one of Hip Hop being an art form... those of you that say things like "I'll NEVER consider that tripe music or art" are typical, snooty, pessimistic close-minded baffoons, you are old, you are dinosaurs, and tho your opinions are welcome, you are largely hot air... the question should be understood as one of intent:
Is Rap intending to voice some sort of emotion or explicate some human condition through music?
or is it trying to manufacture a product for sale? I think the industry itself is performing checks and balances, and calling itself out. Lower sales are indicative of this... people are tired of listening to manufactured Rap product. Afterall, we can only hear so many songs about expensive cars with 24" rims before we start to grow bored with the recipe.
There's a lot of contemporary hip hop that certainly aims to voice some specific emotion, and bring to light conditions you (the old dinosaurs) will never experience due to your paralyzing fear of change. It's okay, though, go sip your congac and 'pump' some opera-drivel through your exorbitant hi-fi while your tired body whithers away in that hideous leather chair... the children of the ghetto will be trying to find their voices thru music without you. And they'll do fine.
the Virgin Mary created from cow dung. Offensive to some, art to others. Just because you don't 'agree' with an interpretation doesn't give you or anyone else for that matter to determine what 'art' is.
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I'd say that since 'sampled' as it is used in this context strongly implies that the owners of the copyrights have been financially compensated, that someone who doesn't know what the word 'stolen' means lacks credibility in the discussion.I'm not interested in the railings against the obvious, though I'm sure it makes you feel better to have pointed out for us what we can all see & hear all by ourselves, thank you very much. I'm far more interested in the low percentage of this particular 'art form' that I find worthwhile rather than pointing out ad nauseum that the much higher percentage of it that I don't is deficient in this area, or anti-social in that area, or violent & offensive over here, or misogynistic & racially insensitive over there. I do know that Berklee School Of Music has offered hip-hop classes, and I do believe that a look at the current roster of Blue Note Records might address this question of yours also.
Too bad Miles Davis passed, you could've asked him, since the last project he was working on when he died was a rap album.
Perhaps you feel you know more about rating art forms than he did.
.
Come up to me with your 'what did you say?' and I'll tell you straight in the eye: DIY
They used to say the same thing about Verdi.
Not sure if that was facetious or not, but I don't care. Works either way.
It must be the week for green. I'm still trying to figure out why Sibelius would want to order up a green fireplace.
How can that be?
...nobody should take you seriously.
.....(C)linton (N)ews (N)etwork?
What does Clinton have to do with anything? Why bring him up? How is he a part of anything? CNN is a major part of the USA's cowed, corrupt, conservative, and big business owned media that supports the current regime, - not anything that happened in the past....If you want some more accurate news, - I suggest spending some time on Al Jazeera, the BBC, or the Guardian...
Come up to me with your 'what did you say?' and I'll tell you straight in the eye: DIY
< CNN is a major part of the USA's cowed, corrupt, conservative, and big business owned media that supports the current regime, - not anything that happened in the past....>
Big business -- yes. Corrupt -- yes.
CNN -- conservative??? Supports the current regime??? NO WAY!
But I certainly do in this case. Nice try Lou Dobbs, but no cigar.I'd watch Al Jazeera once in a while if I could get it in English. By the way, BBC isn't all that much better than US media, but it does give a slightly different perspective occassionaly, as does CBC.
Just my thought: "middle class" Americans, by whom I mean non-rich working US citizens, are continually screwed over by the rich and the corporations but they just don't see it. If you love God and the American way, vote Republican!! If you love God or not, but are beginning to feel the American way is letting you down, vote some other way.
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config ... but always looking for cost effective improvements
Now that IS worse than Rap music, no question.
I don't recall what it is called. But it was very informative.
.
Come up to me with your 'what did you say?' and I'll tell you straight in the eye: DIY
.
Come up to me with your 'what did you say?' and I'll tell you straight in the eye: DIY
I was screwing around with my Sirius radio the other day and tuned into a news broadcast coming from South Africa. That was enlightening.
really emphasizes how bad USA news actually is....
Come up to me with your 'what did you say?' and I'll tell you straight in the eye: DIY
'nuff said.
Why this intense negative response to music someone else likes? What difference doe it make to you?By the way, I listen mostly to classical, Opera, and some jazz and I try up on what's interesting on the pop music scene. Most of the pop I buy (on cd) immediately resell because it's just not my thing. Occassionally I find a band/performer that's a real keeper. I like smart pop--The Decemberists are great. Love Radiohead. I never bought a Los Lobos album until about a month ago, when I bought last year's The Town and the City. Great stuff--highly recommended. BTW, I'm 43.
I bought my first hip hop CD about 6 months ago--The Roots (don't remember the name; it's the one with the hangman on the cover). Not bad. Bought one by Clipse--crtically acclaimed--clever lyrics but I can only listen to so much talk, however clever, about gold jewelry fancy cars and cocaine. Not my cuppa tea. Then I found an act called "Coup'--smart, rebellious, funny, daring, politically astute and engaged--if there's a smarter pop act around right now I haven't heard it. (Don't buy this if your politics is conservative--whatever that might mean--or if you're offended by lyrics like "Bush and Hussein together in bed/Giving H-E-A-D head"--yes, that's infantile, but self-consciously so, and there's plenty on the disc that isn't).
But the point isn't that you have to like it; it is that there's no reason to hate something just because it's not your cup of tea, especially when, as I suspect, you haven't really tried it. Just relax and, as Hamlet said, "Let be."
Aloha Jim,
The reason is simple. As a musician, it pains me deeply to witness the current state of Rap/hip hop ( I refuse to call it music) in which the vast majority of the "artists" can't read music, can't write music, don't play a musical instrument and don't sing a melody. No other profession I can think of would tolorate such crap. Imagine a "Doctor" that cannot read or write prescriptions, has not attended medical school, doesn't know how to do surgery, and can't diagnose or treat yet calls him/herself a "physician" What if I could become a physicist just by saying I am, with no degree in physics, never did the math, and never read any of the past work of others? One is left wondering how any legitimate physicist who has put in the time doing schooling, learning greens functions, etc, would accept that. Worse still would be that a certian sector of the population would actually put trust in these people, based upon the comments to my post. Amazing.
These guys have all the academic credentials you would ever require.
Hey, if you don't like rap and hip-hop it, just say so!There's a vast list of great musicians that have contributed to the marvelous history of music that couldn't read music, or even play an instrument very well.
Muddy Waters, for example, could only not read music, he was illiterate! Oh, but that's OK, he COULD play an instrument - could sing a melody. Jeez, there's probably only about 40 million people on the planet at this very moment that can play an instrument, sing a melody.(And, eventually they are ALL going to be on American Idol...) But, I suppose, you being a "professional" musician, they don't qualify as musicians or possible contributor's to the musical lexicon. Maybe once they qualify for the Musician's Union?
Lounges all over the globe are full of "professional" musicians playing the same gig over and over, same time, same place every night of the week. They can read, (maybe even site-read!) play an instrument, show up on time, probably dress nice and in the long run will be musically forgotten soon after they depart this mortal coil, if not from the time they ended their last set. Chuck D will not be forgotten. Being a "professional" musician doesn't mean one is particularly talented or inspired (or inspiring!), it just means they're disciplined. It doesn't make their overall contribution any more important than a talented amatuer.
You're obviously very full of yourself if you can even conceive of comparing a professional musician (which you consider yourself to be) to a doctor or physicist. It's nice you have standards, but to go to that extent- to actually compare yourself to a doctor - in order for you have to try to invalidate hip-hop/rap as a musical form is just pathetic! It sounds like sour grapes from someone that has probably sold less recordings than some 20 year old that just learned how to say motherfucker, put out a CD, and sold 100,00 copies just on word of mouth alone.
Hey, if you don't like rap and hip-hop it, just say so!
Rap and hip-hop certainly have many wanna-be's, posers, phonies and "talents" that don't even resemble the word, but most popular musical forms do. The amount of unlistenable rap and hip-hop for me is only matched by the amount of hair band metal that was the rage in the 80's, or the Country music posers of today. That doesn't make the overall genres any less legitimate, just unlistenable.
Don't try to elevate yourself by cutting off others' legs!
Hey, if you don't like rap and hip-hop it, just say so!
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
That was humorous.
Too simple, actually.Many wish their music to have melody and harmony along with the words and rhythms. Makes it more interesting to listen to.
Oh yes, throw in cogent improvisation, compositional ingenuity, instrumental and vocal skill, and variety of tempo & style for good measure.
If you remove everything but the words and rhythms there's not enough left to maintain interest. Life's too short for uninteresting music.
nt
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config ... but always looking for cost effective improvements
in the rock music I grew up with.I admit that the misogyny is troublesome, to me at least, and I don't think that was as prevalent as it has become more recently.
Amen!!!!
...not enough to maintain YOUR interest.
I thought that was obvious from my post.I have no interest in policing anyone else's taste in music. Your post seemed to ask a question; I attempted to answer it from my own perspective.
The only thing I would add is that much of the target audience for rap is sadly unaware of the great legacy of music, from jazz to R&B, that came before. I hope they discover it someday and thereby enrich their lives.
In any case, once 40-somethings start liking a form of popular music, it's a sure sign it's on its way out. ;-)
I think the difference might be that the VAST majority of Rap, and even more so, Hip-Hop is not just bad, but absolute CRAP. (In relation to music, my definition for that might be "insultingly bad".)However, there certainly is a .01% that is REALLY, REALLY good. Excellent, well produced, with sparks of genius even. But I will have to say that the percentage of good > tolerable > crap is VERY skewed in the Hip-Hop world. And I will admit that it DOES prejudice me against the entire genre.
It allows artists to get up on TV or the radio, sing stuff that is just plain AWFUL, destructive and, by some accounts, culturally degenerative and smirk as if they have something 'going-on'. I guess I just get SAD when I really think about it.
BTW...I am a classical music lover (primarily) but also like folk/dead/classic rock etc, so some might find it odd that I can see even some good in the music, but I try to remain open-minded.
Rap, hip-hop and related forms of noise is offensive to all the senses.It's not a question of taste. It's vulgar crap performed by surly louts who generally end up dead ( and not lamented) or behind bars (where they belong)
In my musiccollection I have classical ( all periods and opera), jazz, blues, folk, pop, rock, electronic, international, country and other odds and ends. I am embrassed to say I have one Kenny G album.
However, I have no rap or hip-hop aural pornography, but I celebrate and encourage it's demise.
nt
"Your opinion(s) don't mean shit to me!"
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
Some connection or not?
Undoubtedly the toasting style of reggae, the djs who used to talk over rhythm tracks, were a big influence. But well before this, you had people like the Last Poets, and well before that, you had the beat poets reading over jazz. And you also have the griot traditions of West Africa.
I suppose you don't like the way some people of certain culture 'behave' too? Sagging pants, tilted ballcap, gold grill etc...? At one time BLUES was chracterized the same way as you describe Hip-Hop.
N/T
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
> > It's not a question of taste. < <...surely you can see how nonsensical this statement is. Of course it's a matter of taste.
I am reminded of a guy I met during college, on a road trip to Richmond, Virginia, who told me "I'm not prejudiced. I just hate *******." I'm not accusing you or anyone of prejudice; I'm just pointing out the logic (or lack of it) in your statement:'It's not that I don't like it, it's that it sucks.'
Let be.
But that's my call and my own personal taste. It changes too. I never thought I'd like classical but I really do now and I like all variations of Jazz.
It's actually mixed news. Hell everybody is downloading songs to Ipods and cell phones, they don't need to buy the seedees anymore. I bet there are just as many people as ever listening to rap, it's just getting harder to verify.
are on the rise. I see no cultural signs that individuals have chosen to enlighten themselves or dispense with less than edifying music. They're just stealing more than ever, which, of course, would be consistent behavior to the ethos of that genre of music. Drench the minds of individuals with it enough and what would one expect? A more honest society? It may be that it's a fad that has begun to burn out, but I dobut it. I think the artists/labels are now the victims of their own culture of disrespect and indecency. I'm guessing that one could track the adverse effect on cd sales by the sales of mp3 players. A lag, then, whoosh, there goes some more sales due to pirated music. A culture that glorifies indecency will not willingly pay for things that they can steal.
:-)
...that the post above was intended sarcastically, in case anyone missed that fact.I would much rather hang out with a bunch of drug-addicted low-riders than one self-righteous--um--person whose willing to condemn a whole culture on zero evidence. But I know--moral superiority feels SO nice. You gotta get your high somehow.
which one in this thread is the self-righteous one.
without knowing anything about me or the fact that I have befriended persons who have been in prison, addicted to drugs, had major moral lapses, etc. Many are still my friends; that doesn't mean I have to condone what I perceive to be an immoral culture.
Pirated music results in the sale of illegal copies. I think what you're getting at is copyright infringement.But then we have regressed towards what I would characterize as a society that's very educated on headlines & less educated on why the terms so often used in them are so frequently misused.
In these parts the rise of hip-hop has somehow coincided with an across-the-board decrease, not increase, in crime. Including something like a 70% drop in the murder rate over the last 15 years.
Anecdotal evidence plays better, though.
Anybody, like Maui, who makes some or all of their living involved in or with the music business is employing faulty logic in celebrating revenue loss, especially on the basis of personal taste. Moreover, his opinion that this is not music is simply incorrect.
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