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In Reply to: My purpose should have been clear, even to you. posted by robert young on February 21, 2007 at 14:47:08:
One must blow pretty hard to make any kind of impression on Mr. Nut, who is so set in his biases and misconceptions a hurricane would hardly budge him.Please note that neither Jon Risch nor I said measurements were worthless. However, if that's what you rely on for qualitative judgment of a speaker system, you are more often than not misinformed and mislead by such measurements. My former friends at DGX did so and produced a speaker no one could listen to, but which was cutting-edge in the anechoic measurement department.
What measurements do help? Not the kind you see published, I'm afraid. To me the most revealing test is ultranearfield on the raw driver. After measuring and listening to it I can tell how successful a prototype is, and if I want to pursue a design with it.
There's a lot more I could say, but why wear out my welcome more than I already have?
Follow Ups:
"One must blow pretty hard to make any kind of impression on Mr. Nut, who is so set in his biases and misconceptions a hurricane would hardly budge him."This is surely one of the greatest sentences ever written here....
Watching the reel as it comes to a close,
Brutally taking it's time,
People who change for no reason at all,
It's happening all of the time.
YOU BELLOWED AT ME LIKE A BIG BUTT BERTHA:
"One must blow pretty hard to make any kind of impression on Mr. Nut, who is so set in his biases and misconceptions a hurricane would hardly budge him."RG:
I would like to know whether this near-perfect insult is copyrighted before I use it on someone else without retribution, and get sued? When I called you a blowhard in a prior post I had no idea you had such good writing skills. You sir, deserve a promotion ...
to Major Blowhard.
No matter what you say about published measurements, and certainly you must be biased because you are a speaker designer who wants people to listen to his designs, not judge them by published measurements (I feel the same way about subwoofers I build):
... I HAVE found two measurements that help me identify speakers I will later enjoy in a near field position at home.A good looking step response chart, as measured and published by Atkinson, and weaker than usual treble output at 2000Hz.+, when measured on axis (anechoic with one-third octave smoothing) helps me find speakers that I can tolerate when they are placed roughly four feet from my ears, and more than 5 feet from any walls.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
So Brian, based on "your" subjective opinion, you denied the chance of others to hear what an anechoically objectively correct speaker sounds like.You have effectively foisted your subjective opinion onto everyone else, without giving others a chance to judge for themselves.
Before I took the system down I played it for several people, including a well known reviewer.Most said nothing, the reviewer thought the speakers sounded thin, harsh and grainy.
I suppose I could have kept playing it and explaining to everyone that the speaker was right, it was their hearing that was wrong, but I really just didn't want my name associated with such poor sound.
Still, it was based on only a couple of "opinions" (be they respected opinions or not) that they sounded yucky..... and the whole tenet of the subjective arguement is that one man's cheese is another man's mould !!Sounds to me like a case of not getting the lower mids and bass balanced properly. your descriptions sound like the classical description of when BSC hasn't been properly applied. And we all "know" that even in a chamber, low end can be hard to measure properly. ie someone goofed !!!
Did they do distortion measurements do you know ?
Anyway, I will still consider that "major" variations from accurate response are not likely to yield a listenable speaker.
But hey, millions of "B... Life....." listeners can't be wrong, can they ;-))
You seem to be rattlin' the gorilla cage after I already did that ... and soon some Cheney "hand grenades" will come flying at you!
If Cheney and others thought the speakers sounded bad in that room, then they sounded bad no matter how they measured. For example: I've always thought some Bose speakers were designed solely to measure well in the Consumer Report's measurements yet everyone agrees the Acoustimess Shreikers sound awful..Even when I was an objective audiophile last year, I would never claim speakers needed a double-blind test to determine whether they sounded different. I know a poor room can make otherwise good speakers sound bad ... but if other speakers sound good in the same room, then most likely the speakers that sounded bad were simply bad speakers.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
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