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In Reply to: Re: Inverted logic (oxymoron) posted by Brian Cheney on February 20, 2007 at 09:27:19:
You may have thought the set of measurements used were the right measurements for speakers.But after you listened to the speakers, you found out those measurements were, at best, not 100% accurate (for your ears), or at worst, were not the right measurements at all to identify speakers you will like in your room.
Of course you are using only one set of ears in one listening room to claim measurements don't always work -- we have to ASSUME most other listeners would have the same opinion, and we have to ASSUME the speakers would sound just as bad in another room (the sound quality description reminds me of Blose Acoustimess Shreikers).
Bad measurements will usually correlate with speakers that sound bad, or are at least colored.
"Good measurements" will usually correlate with good speakers.
But no measurements are perfect.
Measurements may not have perfect correlation with subjective auditions in our own rooms, but they are much better than flipping a coin when it comes to deciding which of hundreds of speaker brands and models we ought to audition before we buy speakers.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
Follow Ups:
Your post is a long non-sequitur. I chose not to exhibit a bad-sounding speaker system that had nearly perfect anechoic measurements, which you advocate as some kind of benchmark. As John Risch and I have now both pointed out many common speaker measurements are worse than useless because they are misleading, and they are the ones that usually get attention from audiophiles. You dispute my professional opinion and experience, which is your privilege on a public forum. But your opinions are unfounded and of no value here, on least on this subject.
If "many common speaker measurements are worse than useless because they are misleading", then I have to assume you do not use these measurements for your own speakers ... although you claim to know a lot about these measurements for a person who rejects them as "worse than useless"!Are you claiming that "nearly perfect anechoic measurements" are WORSE than flipping a coin when deciding which speakers to audition?
If so, we disagree.
Do you just like to argue with, and insult, any audiophiles who don't agree with everything you post?
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
"Put that in your pipe and smoke it."That was you, ending your reply to Mr. Cheney's first post. Maybe you deserve to be treated with a touch of disrespect. Good behavior shouldn't be limited to the professional manufacturers. "Do you just like to argue with, and insult, any audiophiles who don't agree with everything you post?" Again, that was you. Looking at the posts in this thread, you reaped what you sowed.
Robert, perhaps you would have noticed my complement in the prior sentence if you had not been so busy data-mining to get the ONE sentence just perfect to throw back in my face!I disagreed with Cheney in my post, so he would have come back with a hard-hitting putdown-post whether I had included "Put that in your post and smoke it", or not. And that line was intended to be funny --it's hardly a character attack by the standards here.
Cheney didn't disappoint me with his usual hard-hitting I'm-an-expert and-you're-not counterattack post, which is quite common for him in posts (check his history), and is proof that he actually wrote the post rather than an employee, who would have been polite ... because Cheney is a rude blowhard when someone doesn't agree with him. He has also designed very good speakers and subwoofers over many years, proving that what the audio world really needs is MORE rude blowhards like Cheney!
Care to volunteer?
heh heh
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
After following (and sadly in the past being a part of) the attacks on the "pros," I've come to believe that very few are actually "rude blohards" as you suggest, but get that way because their efforts at being good sports and participating in the Asylum are usually met by some buttwipe hiding behind a moniker and a keyboard doing everything possible to piss them off. (Granted, there seem to be a few over at Propheads who have always been cranky beyond belief: they get what they deserve.)I thought it poor form to goad Mr. Cheney on, when your disagreement with him could have been a simple, and friendly, one. If you take the high road, and Mr. Cheney still attacks like a rabid dog, then who could possibly think anything other than what you have suggested: that he is a "rude blohard." But if he behaves civilly in reasonable discourse, then we all win.
Cheers Richard....
There is no such thing as a friendly disagreement with Cheney because he will not compromise and will instantly revert to the "I'm an expert so I must be right" logical falacy (WHICH HAS A FANCY lATIN NAME I CAN NEVER REMEMBER).Cheney said he could use digital correction to make a speaker measure perfect but it didn't sound good. Then he gave one example of one speaker that measured well anechoically but didn't sound good to his ears in one particular room at a show.
Risch claimed measurements are too misleading for the common audiophile.
Not one of these "experts" addressed my main point that measurements can help us locate speakers worthy of an audition when there is not enough time to audition every speaker for sale ... and when nearly every review (text) seems positive.
I never said speaker measurements were even close to being perfect ... but that doesn't mean they are worthless,as Cheney and Risch would have us believe.
Now get lost, or add some audio content to this thread instead of instigatin'.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
The thread was interesting and informative until you tossed your brand of playground bullying into the mix. You seem to be in denial of your own culpability in these little battles that spring up around you. I always got a kick out of taking on the bullies in the playground. I still do. Now on to "audio content.""Not one of these "experts" addressed my main point that measurements can help us locate speakers worthy of an audition when there is not enough time to audition every speaker for sale ... and when nearly every review (text) seems positive."
Your main point was flawed. "Measurements" in the abstract mean absolutely nothing: they have to correlate with what can be heard, or they have no use. Brian showed an example of why this is so. When those same "measurements" that have no clear corollary in what is actually heard are presented to the typical audiophile (who is not an engineer or speaker designer, etc.), then those measurements are misleading. They are simply not indicative of how a speaker will sound in any given environment. Therefore, I think Risch had a point.
"Not one of these "experts" addressed my main point that measurements can help us locate speakers worthy of an audition when there is not enough time to audition every speaker for sale ... and when nearly every review (text) seems positive."That's because thay don't agree with you. Either do I. I can't hear "measurements." But I can hear music that I know, played through equipment that I know, in a space that I know. If you actually bothered to read any of these reviews that you claim are all essentially the same, you'd note that the descriptions of the performance of the speaker, with particular music choices, varies immensely. It isn't hard to determine which reviewer has similar tastes to oneself, or which conditions (room, equipment, music choice) applies best to one's own situation. So I think you're just plain wrong there as well.
"I never said speaker measurements were even close to being perfect ... but that doesn't mean they are worthless,as Cheney and Risch would have us believe."No, it doesn't. But it also doesn't mean that the extremes are the only possibility, but you seem unable to reasonably debate that. If you had, you wouldn't have taken such an aggrwessive stance to begin with. Now "put that in your pipe and smoke it," and "get lost" yourself.
Me, "aggrwessive"?
Surely you jest.
I'm a pussycat!The two speaker designers are strongly biased toward listening to their speakers because they know from experience that sometimes speakers with what appear to be average, or below average, measurements, may sound much better than they measure, or vice versa.
Every speaker designer in the world, including DIYers like me, is going to say "listen, don't measure" ... even as THEY repeatedly use measurements to aid in their designs!But we audiophiles don't have the timne to listen to every speaker for sale, so we may be able to find one or more measurements that help us identify great speakers, or help us eliminate poor speakers, so we end up auditioning mainly good speakers.
YOU BELLOWED: "Your main point was flawed. "Measurements" in the abstract mean absolutely nothing: they have to correlate with what can be heard, or they have no use"
RG response:
In my post to Risch, which I don't expect you to read, I included an important and obvious caveat:
"I'm assuming a listener over many years has compared speakers, whose sound quality he has experienced at home, with their published measurements, and HAS found some measurement(s) that generally correlates with speakers he likes and/or dislikes at home."You may not have found any measurements that correlate even roughly with what you hear.
That's too bad, because there are far too many speaker brands/models to audition, so that means you have no way to determine which speakers deserve a chance, other than the almost always positive reviews.
When you compare reviews of similarly priced speakers, each reviewer may have different comments about how the speakers sound in his room, but it's difficult to determine which speaker is rated the best:
Each reviewer seems to enjoy the speakers, each review conclusion is almost always positive, and there is no A,B,C,D,F grade posted to summarize the review.You should end all your attack posts by stating you are not related to the actor Robert Young, who often played nice guys in the movies.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
I wonder if your own posts could withstand the type of "critical analysis" you apply to others. Most likely not."But we audiophiles don't have the time to listen to every speaker for sale, so we may be able to find one or more measurements that help us identify great speakers, or help us eliminate poor speakers, so we end up auditioning mainly good speakers."
Again, for the hard of comprehension: in the abstract, measurements are useless. In context, if one can correlate a type of measurement with a type of "sound," then they have meaning. However, that meaningful correlation can only occur AFTER extensive listening. If in the process of that extensive brain-training one can't learn to distinguish a good speaker from a bad one, then I am truly sorry for you. Not wanting to claim to represent "audiophiles" as you seem to have done, for myself my reference is what things in nature really sound like to me, not how a speaker measures.
"That's too bad, because there are far too many speaker brands/models to audition, so that means you have no way to determine which speakers deserve a chance, other than the almost always positive reviews."That's silly. I go to brick-and-mortars, and I listen. Some speakers are good, some are not, and some are great. I've never used a single measurement as a guide of any sort when auditioning speakers. I've never felt the need. You may think my choice of speakers a poor one, but why would I care?
Regarding the reviews: even if as you suggest most reviews are just smiley-faces, I wouldn't see that as a huge problem (I don't agree, though: did you read the review of the Zanden stuff in Stereophile? No? You don't read the rags? Oh, I see....). I would expect the reviewer to have already culled from the review herd those products not worth listening to.
"When you compare reviews of similarly priced speakers, each reviewer may have different comments about how the speakers sound in his room, but it's difficult to determine which speaker is rated the best"No its not. YOU determine what speaker is best for YOU. Like measurements, you have to correlate your own experiences with the comments of a (hopefully) consistent reviewer. That correlation happens by....listening.
Regarding your final parting shot: have at it, Nut. Hypocrisy suits you. Your post history can't survive the same scrutiny you seem to have put mine under.
"Your post history can't survive the same scrutiny you seem to have put mine under."RG
Scrutiny?
I don't even read your posts!A typical audiophile will probably never hear 75% to 95% of the speaker models available in his price range. So there's a good chance he will miss hearing what would have been his favorite speaker if he'd listened to every model available in his price range.
Measurements help me identify speakers more worthy of an audition than simply choosing models at random, or simply choosing to audition speakers because they happened to get a favorable review in one magazine I read (and any favorable review in a major audio magazine is likely to at least somewhat bias my audition).
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
One must blow pretty hard to make any kind of impression on Mr. Nut, who is so set in his biases and misconceptions a hurricane would hardly budge him.Please note that neither Jon Risch nor I said measurements were worthless. However, if that's what you rely on for qualitative judgment of a speaker system, you are more often than not misinformed and mislead by such measurements. My former friends at DGX did so and produced a speaker no one could listen to, but which was cutting-edge in the anechoic measurement department.
What measurements do help? Not the kind you see published, I'm afraid. To me the most revealing test is ultranearfield on the raw driver. After measuring and listening to it I can tell how successful a prototype is, and if I want to pursue a design with it.
There's a lot more I could say, but why wear out my welcome more than I already have?
"One must blow pretty hard to make any kind of impression on Mr. Nut, who is so set in his biases and misconceptions a hurricane would hardly budge him."This is surely one of the greatest sentences ever written here....
Watching the reel as it comes to a close,
Brutally taking it's time,
People who change for no reason at all,
It's happening all of the time.
YOU BELLOWED AT ME LIKE A BIG BUTT BERTHA:
"One must blow pretty hard to make any kind of impression on Mr. Nut, who is so set in his biases and misconceptions a hurricane would hardly budge him."RG:
I would like to know whether this near-perfect insult is copyrighted before I use it on someone else without retribution, and get sued? When I called you a blowhard in a prior post I had no idea you had such good writing skills. You sir, deserve a promotion ...
to Major Blowhard.
No matter what you say about published measurements, and certainly you must be biased because you are a speaker designer who wants people to listen to his designs, not judge them by published measurements (I feel the same way about subwoofers I build):
... I HAVE found two measurements that help me identify speakers I will later enjoy in a near field position at home.A good looking step response chart, as measured and published by Atkinson, and weaker than usual treble output at 2000Hz.+, when measured on axis (anechoic with one-third octave smoothing) helps me find speakers that I can tolerate when they are placed roughly four feet from my ears, and more than 5 feet from any walls.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
So Brian, based on "your" subjective opinion, you denied the chance of others to hear what an anechoically objectively correct speaker sounds like.You have effectively foisted your subjective opinion onto everyone else, without giving others a chance to judge for themselves.
Does that seem fair? ;-))
Before I took the system down I played it for several people, including a well known reviewer.Most said nothing, the reviewer thought the speakers sounded thin, harsh and grainy.
I suppose I could have kept playing it and explaining to everyone that the speaker was right, it was their hearing that was wrong, but I really just didn't want my name associated with such poor sound.
Still, it was based on only a couple of "opinions" (be they respected opinions or not) that they sounded yucky..... and the whole tenet of the subjective arguement is that one man's cheese is another man's mould !!Sounds to me like a case of not getting the lower mids and bass balanced properly. your descriptions sound like the classical description of when BSC hasn't been properly applied. And we all "know" that even in a chamber, low end can be hard to measure properly. ie someone goofed !!!
Did they do distortion measurements do you know ?
Anyway, I will still consider that "major" variations from accurate response are not likely to yield a listenable speaker.
But hey, millions of "B... Life....." listeners can't be wrong, can they ;-))
You seem to be rattlin' the gorilla cage after I already did that ... and soon some Cheney "hand grenades" will come flying at you!
If Cheney and others thought the speakers sounded bad in that room, then they sounded bad no matter how they measured. For example: I've always thought some Bose speakers were designed solely to measure well in the Consumer Report's measurements yet everyone agrees the Acoustimess Shreikers sound awful..Even when I was an objective audiophile last year, I would never claim speakers needed a double-blind test to determine whether they sounded different. I know a poor room can make otherwise good speakers sound bad ... but if other speakers sound good in the same room, then most likely the speakers that sounded bad were simply bad speakers.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
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