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PS audio is no longer balanced and some other changes no so good. a guy trying to sell me accuphase 1200.... i have voltage fluctuations and want to get it very exact. what recommend? use? thx
Follow Ups:
An Accuphase Clean Power Supply totally regenerates the AC into a perfect waveform (ultra-pure and totally stable). It is clearly the best product on the market.
"An Accuphase Clean Power Supply totally regenerates the AC into a perfect waveform (ultra-pure and totally stable). "Uumm, no it does not. It uses "waveform shaping" to correct the distorted AC waveform. It uses a regenerated AC signal as a reference and then applies correction to the AC output.
Don't get me wrong, the Accuphase is a killer unit and I can't argue with U that it is one of the best AC correction products on the market BUT Total and complete AC regeneration it does not provide.Only PS Audio offers units that completely regenerate the AC waveform.
Cheers,
~kenster
nt.
I've used an Accuphase PS-1200 for many years and have been very happy with it. You are correct that it performs "waveform shaping" rather than "waveform regeneration", but I think that this is actually an advantage. The unit runs just warm to the touch even after hours of high-volume listening. I've read that the PS Audio units run hot enough to fry eggs on.
"I've read that the PS Audio units run hot enough to fry eggs on."
That would be the PS Audio PP-300 which does run hotter than a bullet.My PP-600 does run warm at full throttle but is still does not even approach the quiescent temperature of my Pass Labs Aleph 3 amp :-)
Cheers,
HowdyBut waveform regeneration doesn't have to be inefficient...
"But waveform regeneration doesn't have to be inefficient..."Your right, it does not.
Witness the PurePower and the new PS Audio Power Plant Premier which uses AC regeneration on the front end but a digital switching power supply/amplifier on the output.
I still prefer old fashion class A/B amplification for my power purity :-)
Cheers,
futhermore . . . something cannot be ultra pure. It is pure or it is impure, like . . . say . . . Madonna.
,
Likewise something is stable (like me, for instance) or instable like George Mann or some other inmates ;-)
sorry . . .unstable
HowdyYou said "Only PS Audio offers units that completely regenerate the AC waveform."
PurePower seems to do one (or two) better than PS Audio or Accuphase: http://www.purepoweraps.com
I don't have one of them, but on paper they look good.
"PurePower seems to do one (or two) better than PS Audio or Accuphase"PS Audio has a full description and performance specs on their website for the Power Plant Premier and can be perused at the link provided.
I am sure any of these units would perform on almost equal footing when compared to each other AND there would be NO comparison when pitted against what our local power company sends us!!!
Cheers,
~kenster
HowdyEspecially since I've never owned a PS Audio power conditioner or a PurePower product... But:
As to equal footing: it's not clear how long the PS Audio runs with no AC input :)
Also it's clear that many of their claims about their competitors are false given the specs from PurePower, perhaps they don't know about them? (Actually I don't believe that since they've incorporated some long standing PurePower features into their new product.) And don't get me started about MultiWave...
I still like the PurePower on paper better, but how do you know till you listen?
just wondering if one of the brands hv to be careful of. knock offs out there? thx for the input btw
HowdyWhy is it better than say PurePower? ( http://www.purepoweraps.com )
Then you put some X rated caps in and only THEN worry about a regenerator.
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
One of my customers who lives in a condo building experienced drastic changes in sound due to voltage fluctuations. In the evening and on weekends the sound was good, while on weekdays his system was just about unlistenable. Apparently the voltage coming out of the wall is pretty high on weekdays, yet when people are home and using power the voltage drops to a normal level. A variac could have been used but in most cases is detrimental to the sound. Isolation transformers and noise filtering made a dramatic improvement.I'm not a proponent of balanced power. For one thing it can raise safety concerns, and for another not all components will work with it, for example EMMlabs gear doesn't. I imagine they and others have valid reasons this is so.
Best regards,
"I'm not a proponent of balanced power. For one thing it can raise safety concerns, and for another not all components will work with it, for example EMMlabs gear doesn't. I imagine they and others have valid reasons this is so."Please enlighten us as to how Balanced power is NOT safe!!
I have been using balanced power for over 5 years in 3 seperate systems and all the gear I've owned/used works on Balanced Power and works extremely well!! I am at a loss as to the EMM labs gear. Is the EMM labs gear designed to operate on 120VAC? If so, it will certainly function if fed balanced power.
Curious minds want to know where your getting your information.
Cheers,
HowdyBalanced power isn't simply 120V, it's safety ground is at 60V relative to either side instead of 0V relative to neutral and 120V relative to hot. Since this isn't 'standard' it may be violating the assumptions of the designers of various gear. The assumption is that unless their is a failure the ground is within a few volts of the neutral leg. There are a lot of ways of tying the safety ground to the signal ground, thru a resistor, a fuse, a gas discharge tube, a "ground lift" switch, etc. Not all of these react well to a constant 60V difference when just a few volts are expected. One can easily imagine audio degradation if not outright failure with balanced power on some components.
If you insist on balanced power IMO you should contact the manufacturer of every piece of equipment that you are going to plug in to it and ask if their design works with balanced power. If it doesn't don't blame them, it's balanced power that's the oddball.
I also appreciate equipment that checks it's assumptions about the ground and shuts down if the ground is more than a few volts different than the neutral. This indicates to me that they are interested in my safety.
Thanks, Ted. You said it as well as anyone else could have.
Best regards,
"If you insist on balanced power IMO you should contact the manufacturer of every piece of equipment that you are going to plug in to it and ask if their design works with balanced power. If it doesn't don't blame them, it's balanced power that's the oddball."With Balanced power, one still gets the full 120VAC swing that is delivered with unbalanced power. The main difference is that the voltage swings -60VAC and +60VAC at a 60/50hz rate and I don't see how that could in any way effect component functionality.
"Not all of these react well to a constant 60V difference when just a few volts are expected. One can easily imagine audio degradation if not outright failure with balanced power on some components."
Yes, the chassis of said component should be electrically attached to the earth GND of the balanced power supply for optimum performance/safety BUT if the component employs a 2 prong plug in the first place and is UL listed as being safe, how is utilizing Balanced power going to pose a safety/electrical hazard?Cheers,
HowdyI wasn't restricting my post to two pronged equipment. Heck the only two pronged equipment in my system are Tivos and CD jukeboxes :)
"I wasn't restricting my post to two pronged equipment. Heck the only two pronged equipment in my system are Tivos and CD jukeboxes :)"Even still, there R NO safety dangers with Balanced Power. It is perfectly safe and one only needs to do some research to find out it is. I still can't fathom how any piece of equipment designed to operate on 120VAC would not function safely on balanced power!
Please peruse the link provided :-)Cheers,
~kenster
HowdyI can't see how anyone couldn't see the danger. I'm serious.
Did you read my post? What don't you believe that I said in that post?
There are many devices which will obviously work. There are many which obviously won't. Then there are the ones which work for a while and then catch fire :) (Only slightly kidding.) Even if it could theoretically work for some equipment that equipment isn't tested in this configuration so we really shouldn't put too much confidence in that testing...
I'll never take a manufacturer of balanced power's word for it that it's safe. There are people out there that think MultiWave is a good idea too :)
............I certainly did read your post and reply'd in what I felt to be in a competent manner. Did U read the FAQ's about balanced power?"I'll never take a manufacturer of balanced power's word for it that it's safe."
Oh please, it's UL listed as being safe!!
"There are people out there that think MultiWave is a good idea too :)"
What do U have against PS Audio's Multiwave?
HowdyUL doesn't test with a ground at 60V for the life of the equipment so their test isn't necessarily relevant for the long term health of the equipment. It's only a slight exaggeration to say that UL doesn't care if your device self destructs under test, they only care if it hurts someone in doing so.
All of my arguments against MultiWave are the same as my arguments again indiscriminate use of balanced power. I'll try to write them in generic form for both MultiWave and balanced power:
They violates the assumptions of the designer of the equipment. That equipment isn't tested with inputs like that and some equipment which is competently designed will fail when put under that needless stress of unexpected input. The equipment isn't tested with those kinds of input and unforeseen problem could arise later if not when first plugged in... I wouldn't ever use such a feature without consulting the manufacturer (well actually for some of my equipment that I know uses a quality switching power supply I know that it doesn't care about MultiWave, then again why would I use anything but a pure sine for it anyway.)
"UL doesn't test with a ground at 60V for the life of the equipment so their test isn't necessarily relevant for the long term health of the equipment. It's only a slight exaggeration to say that UL doesn't care if your device self destructs under test, they only care if it hurts someone in doing so."The 60VAC is irrelevant. What is it that your missing? Balanced power STILL has the 120VAC swing and the device will still be protected in either situation.
I would refer U to the benefits of Multiwave but it sounds like U have already made up your mind. Either way, I still use the sinewave mode on my PS Audio PP-600 as it does sound better with tube equipment :-)
Cheers and thanx for the banter,
HowdyThe voltage of the safety ground certainly isn't irrelevant. As I mentioned before since standard practice is that it's very close to the same voltage as neutral except when some component has failed there are many ways that a designer could build something that cares when it isn't and in fact some better pro gear specifically shuts down when the safety ground is too far away from the neutral. UL doesn't care if something shuts down under test, but the user might :) Another example is the equipment that has a bleed resistor from the safety ground to the signal ground which may not be designed for the continuous current that 60V implies.
My point is that operating equipment outside of it's design parameters and it's testing domain is asking for trouble.
Good to see that you went to bed :) Have a good night. I'll listen to Rachmaninov another time or two...
"Re: a good isolating trannie is FAR better,"An isolation transformer cannot correct distorted/clipped AC waveforms or stabilize the line voltage.
However, I am a strong proponent of Balanced Power and have converted all 3 of my systems over to it. Once you have tried balanced power vs. unbalanced, it is a no brainer as the benefits FAR outweigh the drawbacks.
I have found that regenerated power can make for a "sterile" sonic presentation and therefore I have moved my PS Audio Power Plant 600 AC Regenerator into the HT system where the benefits on my Sony video monitor are nothing short of eye popping :-)
Cheers,
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