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In Reply to: I just got phone screened by a dealer and rejected posted by Robert Joe on February 14, 2007 at 11:24:10:
First of all. the Opera speakers you seek I don't have open, and they are hard to get so I'm not inclined to create open stock for no reason...and frankly don't have an inch to spare, nor the time for someone that, based on your earlier posts, bought his last two pair of seakers, some Spendors and some Sonus Faber used on Audiogon.So if your last two speaker purchases were used, and on at least one of those sales you torched some poor dealers afternoon with demos. Here's your posts:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=242273&highlight=Robert+Joe&r=&session=
and:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=242476&highlight=Robert+Joe&r=&session=
You wanted me to open a pair of speakers plus move in a pair of Vienna Baby Grands and Sonus Faber.Of course maybe now you would buy the Sonus new since you last ones were grey market, and as you stated they would not even sell you replacement parts.
As to you being a previous customer that visits my website frequently....your speaker purchase here was in 1998....so with all the activity you have had here I'm not holding my breath.
By the way...nice way of "not mentioning my name" so you don't drag it through the mud....but DO tell them about all the special show deals I bring back which we are rather famous for and are the only company that has the cash flow and strong backs to do it.
Next time....use this
"I won't mention the Upland California dealers name that has Tube Guy or something similar on his license plates. I also won't mention he imports products and is the #1 dealer for Manley Cary and a bunch of other names, He is 5'8" and bald and has a 9 lb malte-poo named Rocky. But let's leave all that out. It's the priniciple of the thing"
Follow Ups:
... why go out of your way to be offensive? If you had merely been terse or mildly dismissive in your handling of the OP's call this thread wouldn't have been here.Telling someone to f#ck off seems really uncalled for in this situation and there's been no excuse offered for it. You are defending the reason you turned him away , a red herring as far as most here are concerned. Nothing in your lengthy response provides adequate justification of your insulting behavior, leading me to believe there was no justification - other than your presumed right to vent your frustrations with previous customers on the unsuspecting next one without consequence. Well, there is a consequence to this sort of behavior, as this thread clearly illustrates.
The first line of your post here should have been an apology - not for turning away a potential customer which is your right - but for being a needlessly offensive prick about it.
EOM
< < First of all. the Opera speakers you seek I don't have open > >I'm with Brian Cheney here. We *want* our dealers to demo our products. That helps make sure that the customer knows what he is getting and is likely to be happy with his purchase.
< < bought his last two pair of speakers, some Spendors and some Sonus Faber used on Audiogon. > >
Huh? Since you regularly sell stuff on Audiogon, why in the world would you be offended when someone buys something on Audiogon? For all I know, he bought the speakers in question from you.
< < maybe now you would buy the Sonus new since you last ones were grey market > >
Unless I'm missing something, the original poster purchased *used* Sonus Fabers, not grey-market ones. You make it sound like he imported them directly from Italy in order to screw Sumiko, but I see no evidence of that.
nt
CLick the picture below to see my system
enjoy the music!
I think this was one of them. You do not have to explain your actions to anyone.
Be a stand up guy and admit to poor handling of that phone call.
on the dog anyway. Malti-poos are cool. My Mr. Max says hi.
It can't possibly be good for business.Customers (excepty for Ghasley but he's just a cheerleader) are going to wonder when they too will try the patience of the "old and wise" Mr. Deal.
The respect for the customer is totally lost on business people these days. It's sometimes happens when people USED to be customer oriented (as it sounds like Mr. Deal has been according to some rather believable testimonials), seem to become complacent or jaded or some other thing. It seems so many high-buck audio stores are just so "put out and hard done by" I feel guilty for calling up and asking the store hours.
We all don't walk in with $100K and say "Pick out a system for me Mr. Deal. Use whatever stock you got laying around - preferrable stuff you are having a hard time moving. Don't open any boxes or anything." If people did, I would opening a store myself.Do you think that perhaps that some of your customers came in that made a "snap" purchase may have acutally been at some OTHER dealer for a demo and YOU benefitted at the expense of SOMEONE ELSE? It's always the "I am the biggest victim of inept time-bandit customers. Why me? Why do I need to work for some of my sales?".
Some customers take minutes or already know what they want. Other customers have no inention of buying and are just tire kickers. Do you not have POLITICALLY CORRECT avenues for redirecting tire kickers? I thought you were an experienced guy? Like others said - you don't sound like youself. Maybe you need a sabbatical.
Use your instincts to try and minimize your losses Mr. Deal. But I would refrain from using the internet to try and "psycho-analyse" repeat and prospective customers and determine their "worth" based on their past spending habits or what products they are posting about. This "customer profiling" you subjected Mr. Joe to was downright bazaare. And I would definately refrain from doing the "People (a former customer in this case) that have bought used can _________ off. Thank you. CLICK" if that is indeed what was said.
There is going to be very little support for these actions from the "customer side" of this community, despite the fact that most reasonable people (in business or not) do acknowlege that some customers are more of a pain than others.
You do have "The right to refuse service"... and you can make snap judgements about who will spend what before they even get to your front door.
But I believe these to be big mistakes.
High end audio is a niche market that caters to the fussiest and sometimes most eccentric people on the planet who often have very extreme biases and prejudices. Their purchases are based on very subjective things that are largely out of your control. If you are tired of audiophiles (you wouldn't be the first) , may I suggest automotive supplies? There are few demos in this line of work.
Although I was unlikely to purchase from your internet based stores, I now know I would be inclined not too. I wouldn't want to burden you with processing my sale or risk having my character attacked if I don't meet you "standards" for being a good customer.
Cheers,
Presto
...
What is so "ideal" about how customers are treated nowadays?There was a time when handing a person a wad of cash got you some respect whether it was $5 for a burger or $25,000 for a car. Anyways, I don't know you from Adam, but I do know that only a crazy person would come across as a "Deal sympathizer" in this thread.
You "poor audio salesmen" should really save the "customers suck" attitude for coffee room or bar after work. Audioasylum is NOT really a good place to express such feelings.
Or maybe it's just me.
Cheers,
Presto
You think it is an Asylum for those who have nothing invested in this business. Do you think those of us who do are here just to say "screw you" to potential customers or clients? Get f~ real. Better yet, put your own dollars up. Try it for awhile. This business is not all rainbows and ice cream. Sorry.....I have to chuckle.
"You think it is an Asylum for those who have nothing invested in this business."Nope. There are some great guys on here that despite running a business in audio (and we all know running ANY business is like two full time jobs) still make time to come here and share their knowlege and experience with a vast variety of gear. Guys in the biz have so much more exposure to different gear, and they are an excellent resource - and they help people on here for free. This I appreciate, as should other people.
"Do you think those of us who do are here just to say "screw you" to potential customers or clients?"
No. Just some of you. Mr. Deal would be one.
"Get f~ real."
Stop swearing at me. I'm not your customer! :o)
"Better yet, put your own dollars up. Try it for awhile."
Been there done that. Tried the DJ biz when I was young. People expected you to drag $30,000 worth of equipment and $10,000 worth of music in a $40,000 cube van into a high school gymnasium for $300 a show. Blow a $500 compression driver? You gotta work two shows just to pay for it - and hope you don't blow something ELSE up in the meantime. Not to mention drunk people that want to crawl on your speakers (or just kick in the grills) at weddings and then not pay you beacause, well some people think f***ing the DJ out of his pay and complaining about something trivial AFTER the fact is perfectly acceptable. And you leave because they're all related, all pissed-drunk, and rolling up their sleeves.
"This business is not all rainbows and ice cream."
Name me a business that is. Even guys in the porn industry get tired of working with all those hot but really stupid women after a while.
"Sorry.....I have to chuckle."
Laugh all you want. But the only people laughing around these parts are those who cannot believe the sheer audacity of Mr. Deal. I know you guys gotta stick together -but c'mon. This is not a good "hill to die on".
Vent at the bar with your audio buddies. Don't get dragged into what Deal got dragged into on the net. If I owned an audio biz, I probably would not even COME HERE! It may help, but let's face it - you guys are held accountable for EVERYTHING you say here, where joe six packs (me included) can spout off with little or no consequence.
Deal should have ignored the post. Almost feel sorry for him. Maybe he WAS just having a bad week.
Now, you get to have the last word and this conversation is done. For all I know you have products I need and for all you know I am a fool with a boatload of money to spend. This is sillyness.
Profile customers if that's what you need to do to survive. But I think what happened in this case is a good reminder that sometimes it's better to bit ones lip. Deal was in his right to FEEL the way he felt, but in business, you can't always express your feelings. I know I can't. There's been a few clients over the years I wish would go elsewhere or just self-combust - but at the time the firm needed the work, and a bad client was better than no client at all.
Cheers,
Presto
But there is no kissing in audio. ;~)
nt
free advertising for your sales of new Opera speakers at a reduced cost cannot be THAT bad ... especially to people (like AudiogoNer's) looking for Internet deals by mail order ... You might gain some sales thanks to Robert Joe!I see also your policy of not demoing any gear listed on your used and demo page (in the FAQ section of the Used/Demo page) ... perhaps you should have pointed him to that page rather than getting mad and hanging up on him
Jeff
You're in business. You have competion. That competion not is longer just from the dealer down the street; it's internet sellers, Audiogon, eBay, privately sold used equipment in general, and the grey market. It's up to you to convince the customer that you have something more than other options.If you offer services these other sources don't, then you have to make that a selling point. But don't feel you're "doing the customer a favor" by demoing equipment, offering advice, etc. No, you're offering the customer an enticement to buy from you: he's doing YOU a favor by listening to your equipment and your advice / bullsh!t. So just stop whining: if your bricks & mortar business model isn't working, get out of business. That'll show 'em, right? Maybe they'll miss when you're gone -- or maybe not so much.
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config ... but always looking for cost effective improvements
Mr. Bailey, while you are not incorrect in your description, the business has changed and your description of the customer relationship is a bit simple. I would contend that there exists an amount of time and/or effort to make a sale whereby the sale iitself is actually DETRIMENTAL to the business. In simple terms, if the business requires a gross margin per day of $5,000 to cover overhead, salaries and real estate costs and you are FORTUNATE to maintain a 15% profit margin on average, then you need to sell MORE THAN $33,333 per day. So, if it is going to cost this business person 2 hours plus of his/her time to set up and show these products, that customer MAY be unprofitable. If the customer stated, "I will BUY one of these 3 speakers after demoing them at your location", then the response would likely have been different. If you absolutely hated all of the speakers, Kevin nor any other dealer would force a transaction. They must however allocate their time wisely to run a solid business. I have had wonderful experiences with Upscale and Kevin, but then I am not looking for someone to dontate their kidney to me....I always ask if it is a good time for me to call and he answers honestly. I would have made alot of bad purchases without his advice and I have made alot of good purchases SOLELY because of his excellent guidance based on his years of experience.
...naturally he'll be unhappy, but it's up to him to correct the impression. Like it or not, qualifying is just part of sales.clark
Dealers are there to serve the customer, which is what keeps their doors open and the bills paid. If the dealer does a good job of serving the customer, the customer not only spends their money there, they come back and bring friends with them. Sometimes, these friends are brought with directly, sometimes they are sent via referals.If it were the other way around i.e. the customer had to meet qualifying standards that the dealer set, customers would walk in like scared little animals behaving as best possible waving gobs of money in their hands. Since this is not the case most of the time, it is up to a dealer to show the potential customer that they are qualified to serve the customer and that they deserve that customer's business. Nobody wants to do business with someone that doesn't inspire confidence or trust.
Besides all of that, most audio dealerships have salespeople sitting on their ass complaining about how slow business has been. When they are met with a potential customer, rather than do their best to work with the customer and secure that potential sale, they make a half-assed attempt to offer their services. In doing so, the customer can tell that the salesperson feels "put out" since they had to get off of their lazy ass to see what they wanted.
Obviously, not every person that walks through the door or calls is going to be a paying customer. If one can't deal with that fact, this type of salesperson needs to find a job that they are better suited to. Cleaning toilets might be right up their alley. This type of profession might give them something more to relate to than working with actual human beings. Sean
>
"Qualifying" is a critical early step in the procedure. It's a triage of sorts, and no one in professional sales training dismisses the possibility of blowing off a useless customer. (That does not mean that one need be rude.)From a few manuals on the subject:
How to Qualify Sales Prospects
"When you're striving to grow your business, it's easy to get caught up chasing every lead that comes your way. But all prospects are not created equal; some are more likely than others to turn into sales.
"To avoid wasting precious resources, you need to weed out the long shots and concentrate your efforts on prospects apt to yield a return on your investment of time, money and energy."http://www.allbusiness.com/sales/selling-techniques/1360-1.html
Techniques for Qualifying Prospects
"It is essential to accurately track these calls and designate whether a prospect provides low or high customer potential. When organizing your call schedule, move the lower-potential prospects to the bottom of the list."
http://www.gmarketing.com/articles/read/40/Techniques_for_Qualifying_Prospects.html
Etc.
clark
are useful for increasing individual sales; but are short-sighted and harmful to the business in the long run. The people writing those books, and trying to sell you expensive seminars on 'The power of saying no', are looking to profit on people with weak business models.
They're the useless ones. Also you must realize, there are some (many?) weirdos out there who just want to waste other peoples' time. You have to learn to blow them off! Unless, of course, you're just sitting on your hands most of the day, in which case you *already* have an unsuccessful business model.clark
Clark,The approach suggested by the sales manual will result in the salesperson generating a negative signal, and this will almost certainly be perceived as such by the potential customer. Most people are surprisingly sensitive to these signals. As a sales organization, if you approach people with anything less than a desire to be of service or even worse a frown and a negative attitude, the potential customer can only think that they are not welcome. If a sale professional were to follow that advice in the 'sales manual' you quoted, productivity would almost certainly suffer in the long run. One must accept that not every opportunity will result in a sale.
nt
what is your definition? I think that phrase has different meanings to different people. Do you consider reviewers tire kickers? Do you know why it can be a good thing for someone to have their tires kicked? Do you think that all tire kickers are bad? If you have so much business that you feel that you must cherry pick your customers, maybe you should consider expanding. If 90% of your traffic is tire kicking and not buying, don't blame the tire kickers.
Tire kickers are customers who have little idea how to shop or how to ask intelligent questions.Qualifying is not "cherry picking", the references make that quite clear.
clark
"Tire kickers are customers who have little idea how to shop or how to ask intelligent questions".The average consumer is typically not well educated when it comes to sorting through a wide variety of electronics, nor are they well versed in the proper lingo or terminology. This means that they are less than "good shoppers" and not very likely to ask the most pertinent questions. In effect, everyone BUT dedicated electronics enthusiasts could be called "tire kickers" by your own definition. Even then, many dedicated electronics enthusiasts can be difficult to deal with, as many of them simply like to browse and "talk shop" with other enthusiasts, professional or not.
With that in mind, it is the dealer's job to help the "tire kicker" find the product(s) that are best suited for them, educate them about their options and help them obtain the best performance from them. If a dealer can do this, and offer any needed support AFTER the sale, they are more than likely to establish a great reputation and repeat customer base. If they can't do ALL of this relatively consistently ( we all have bad days ), they are more than likely going to have problems supporting their business in the long term.
As a side note, the more advertising that one does, the more "tire kickers" they are likely to encounter. That's because the uninitiated don't know who to turn to with their multitude of questions, so they turn to those with a higher visibility factor. As such, if you don't want to deal with those that are less than educated about the products they seek out, stop advertising.
When one takes this approach, the majority of customers that they'll end up dealing with will either be repeat customers / referals or those that are already familiar with the basics and have sought out what they consider to be a worthy dealer. While this approach narrows down the prospective list of clientele, it also allows the salespeople to spend more quality time with those that took the time to seek them out and / or were previous customers / referals. It is a win / win situation for all involved, so long as the dealer maintains that high level of customer service and their customers spread the word. Sean
>
..."Tire kickers are customers who have little idea how to shop or how to ask intelligent questions" I should have added, "yet they come with attitude -- the attitude that they know everything.Sean, you (of all people!) seem unable to grasp the fact that some folks (like a dozen or so here on AA) are simply not worth dealing with, you'll never get through to them.
clark
That doesn't mean that i can't try. An education, even if it is very slow, time consuming and clumsy, can be a powerful thing. It is rare for anyone to have a change of heart at the drop of a hat. As such, incessant tire kickers get the benefit of learning the how's & why's through extended conversations.In this respect, many "tire kickers" become the best, most loyal clients. You've not only show them the ropes, but that you truly believe in what you do and are willing to take the time to help others understand too. After all, customer service is what breeds customer loyalty. Even if they aren't customers yet.
I'm very much the optimist in real life, even though i may do a lot of bitching about "incompetence". I have faith that with enough education and coaxing, people will do the right thing. While it is true that many won't come around, i'm still too young to want to believe that. Bitterness is for the old and disgruntled, who have pretty much given up on mankind. I'm still trying to change the world.
Tell me, where IS sanity??? : ) Sean
>
Oh good. For a minute there, I thought I was a tire kicker.
so i can see what i'm doing wrong. At this point in time, i've only got about two months worth of back-logged work to catch up on. I need more work to put me deeper in the hole....All of this without every doing ANY advertising whatsoever. If you want to call the most generic of listings in the phone book an advertisement, i'm guilty of that. I've never had to advertise since my customers do it for me. Their referals are what keep me busy. Then again, i realize that without them, i wouldn't be able to pay my bills or keep my doors open. Since every person that comes through my door could be a potential customer, i treat them as such.
When i start conducting my business by what a manual tells me, i need to get a new job. That means that i would be working by the book, not by the heart or head. Customers are humans, not mannequins with a wallet. They need to be treated as such by another human, not categorized, sized up and qualified by a sales robot.
It is this lack of personalization in retail sales that allows the internet market to prosper while brick and mortar shops are failing. Why bother with human contact and risk aggravation, rejection and ridicule when you can buy what you want over the net with NONE of that taking place?
The only thing that a retail sales outlet has going for them nowadays is "customer service". Without that, they have absolutely NOTHING to offer a potential customer that can't be found elsewhere for a lower price with less potential for hassle. When business owners and salespeople start recognizing that fact, they'll start prospering again. Until that point, they'll be stuck working from out of date manuals that will only further compound their problems. Sean
>
PS... Like any other industry, there are people that are good at their job and those that are bad. Consumer electronics is no different. Kudo's to those dealers and salespeople that know what they are doing and have their customers best interest at heart. When one can do that, they'll not have to worry about pushing people in directions that they don't want to go, just so that they can pay their own bills.
...truly prospective customers. Suppose a bum enters your high-end shop; are you going to put your arm around him? How about some ambulatory alcoholic who can barely slur her words out? Someone looking for Sony?There are times when you must draw the line.
Everyone's line is different, but they must recognize that it's there.
That's called "qualifying".
Example: A Lamborghini dealer has a different line from a Chevrolet dealer.
Facts of life.
clark
Clark,In reference to your comment on ambulatory female alchoholics (I've met quite a few in the pub at closing time) and Sony customers; I walked into the Sony Store almost three months ago and spent few hundred bucks under $20,000.00 in cash. It took me about thirty minutes to complete the transaction and leave, at which point the salesperson could concentrate on helping another customer. The reason I chose Sony for a second HT system and a system for my parents is because I had a problem with a Sony TV about six months ago and Sony went the distance to solve that problem and assure my satisfaction. Was I putting them out to fix the problem? Yes. But I returned as a serious customer the next time around, and for moderate HT needs both now and in the future, I perceive Sony as the solution of choice. Even though I've bought Sony equipment, I've also spent almost 60k on my 2-channel audio system thus far and am gearing up to drop another 35k to 40k in the next few months. Just because I bought Sony does not disqualify me as a prospect for higher performance audio-only gear. I wanted to point out that the trouble with disqualifying people so readily according to some archaic or theoretically unproven sales manual is that one is bound to pass over and lose decent opportunities. Even worse, in persisting with such a philosophy one runs the risk of being perceived unfavourably in the community that accounts for most of the potential prospects.
...as a likely-to-be-useful customer. How they treated you afterwards, is the different subject.However: Your phrase, "some archaic or theoretically unproven sales manual" is pretty amusing. "Archaic"? So show us the modern one. "Theoretically unproven"? Even funnier! Ideas about sales techniques are not theoretical, they are practical, empirical, and well-proven on that level, the only one that counts.
You are fighting a losing battle, which is why methinks you had to address a different subject.
clark (many years in sales, rarely lost a customer... in fact, some of them are now very good friends)
I probably wouldn't have a chance in your little shop of horrors. I've purchase twice from dealers in recent times, once from the subject of honor here and once from a dealer who was recommended by the manufacturer though he was still 150 miles away. I was given the hard sell by KD, "If I give you a price are you ready to buy right now?" Had a problem with it right away and guess what, had to pay to have it shipped for warranty work. Ok we have to have a thick skin. The other, who had little time invested because I purchased by phone and it was drop shipped to my house by the manufacturer, referred all questions to said manufacturer. Both of these buys left a bad taste.I've lost count of the number of purchases I've made online, only had one bad buy and it was made right by the seller.
Do you think one just wakes up one day in their midlife and says, "gee now that I can afford it I think I'll plunk down 10, 20, 30k on a stereo"? I doubt it. Many, I think worked their way up the chain and along the way got banged up a little by being qualified and ignored by salesmen who didn't have time to answer newbee questions because well our time is just too damned important. So we (I) found another way...the internet much like Colt...the great equalizer. Research it online, you can't tell what it should really sound like in a shop any way. Buy it online, I've had to go the manufacturer for help in both my experiences anyway, and when you get ready to sell it's back to the internet where you'll get true market value.
Are you still wondering where your customers are going?
I did have a very positive experience when I was starting out many years ago. An area furniture store, very old building with plastic draped where it rained in, had a small cramped area packed with audio. No advertising just word of mouth led me here. The proprietor was an elderly gentleman who'd had a stroke, his left arm in a sling, eagerly and graciously introduced me to hifi. The twinkle in his eye was enough to convey his love for the hoby. I could have listened all day if I wished. I bought two whole systems from him, had to borrow every cent of it. I'm sure glad he didn't qualify that long-haired kid with acne and holes in his jeans. Sorry to run on but I'd just like to remind you that if you give everyone a chance maybe some will surprise you, if not today perhaps tomorrow.
Quote by asubdud"""I was given the hard sell by KD, "If I give you a price are you ready to buy right now?" Had a problem with it right away and guess what, had to pay to have it shipped for warranty work."""
--------------------------------------------------------------------
My policy is better than most anyone in the industry. We exchange truly defective product in the first 30 days if it a product we still carry. Most dealers don't do it in the first week, or even day.
And we typically handle shipping during that period. So what I want from you is your name then we will look up your purchase and subsequent "problem"
If true I'll cut you the check. So let's see it.
"My policy is better than most anyone in the industry. We exchange truly defective product in the first 30 days if it a product we still carry. Most dealers don't do it in the first week, or even day."No dealer I've dealt with (or know something about) in the NYC/NJ area would refuse to exchange a defective product in the first week, let alone day. How could a dealer who refuses to do that even stay in biz for a week?
After looking at my records it wasn't right away as I recollected, it was 5 months from purchase to repair. I'm sorry for making that mistake. I stand by the rest of my statement. The point that I wanted to make is that you were rude and I see many references to your rudeness. Im sure it was fun for you at one time maybe you could regain that somehow.Kevin, no one wants to see you harmed here. I want choices and UA is a damned good one but I won't spend what I consider serious money where it's not appreciated.
When you buy it used, and it breaks.....I'm suddenly a great guy------------------------------------------------------
hello kevin,
you come highly recommended... from just about everyone.I am having a problem with my unico...
the left channel will be there one second and then fade to nothing...
a second passes and the come back in.
it could be something as easy as changing a tube.. but i don't know...I then have a Macintosh 6100 that seems to be really soft in the left
channel.
again... I don't know. In stereo it's noticeable, and in L to RL it
is horriblewould this be something you could help with?
thank you in advance...
(name deleted)
What makes you sure this guy didn't send a similar email to a dozen dealers, hoping to hit the jackpot somewhere?Yeah, it makes him a cheeseball probably, but that doesn't make you the One True Savior of all things audio.
I'm sure you told him to eff off.
You really need to excavate that large chip on your shoulder and start READING what people on this thread have to say. Too many negative stories, too many criticisms of your style, too many to ignore. I don't recall seeing this sort of thing about any of your contemporaries who enjoy national fame (and notoriety, as in subject at hand) among the audio cognoscenti.
There are several of those who enjoy a great reputation across the country and on these boards... Wally, Bill Baker, Venus, Galen Carol, to name only a few. Every one of my locals in Atlanta is extremely gracious and usually generous with his/her time (the fine lady at Audio Alternative being an example of the women in audio, few in total, who work extra hard to earn their stripes in this male-dominated field - but that's another story).
We don't see vituperation about them here, don't hear about them telling their customers to get effed. I have dealt with several of them and they are always courteous and helpful, even on the occasions I told them upfront (ie, the first thing after 'Hello') that I wasn't likely to buy from them this time but was just needing a question answered. Guess what? They obliged, without using any effing eff words. 'Obliged' being a key term here. One day, I hope to return the favor to each of them by voting with my dollars, and have already done so with several.
Judging solely from your spelling and grammar, you did not have the benefit of a good education. Judging from your manners, you did not have the benefit of a good upbringing either. I suppose pointing this out may be bad manners in itself, but my folks would probably pardon my making this exception.
For you to say the following"Judging solely from your spelling and grammar, you did not have the benefit of a good education. Judging from your manners, you did not have the benefit of a good upbringing either. I suppose pointing this out may be bad manners in itself, but my folks would probably pardon my making this exception."
When you know nothing of my character, of of me personally, is a bit much. I don't get the obsession you have but don't need to. But I will tell you at the end of the day....you won't feel better about yourself for slamming people....be that the case.I make the decisions here, and stand behind, and in person made ammends to people when needed. But not because KKC told me to.
Though I'm open to suggestions. See...I operate like an open book. I don't push people toward sales....in fact the opposite.But with all that in mind I have a great time with customers I can say I love, my business is successful enough that I no longer need to work and that gives me the luxury of saying no to the people I was once forced to say yes to out of desperation to make my next house payment. Now we are the #1 U.S.A. dealer for a few major brands, pay our bills early and enjoy a good reputation....though I don't think this forum, any more than rec.audio.opinion is a place I measure our success.
Now I pay my employees fair, supply benefits like health insurance, and a profit sharing plan I fund for them 100%, and and have made sacrifices for the love of my life. Mistakes here and there? Sure. Basics in place the way I want them? Yes.
...so be it. I won't be responsible for your smarmy analogies, nor endorse them.I once called you to ask about the ASL items you had on your sales page. I was ready to pull the trigger on an integrated there. Almost immediately, you launched into a diatribe about how poor their QC was and that I would be much better off buying a Primaluna (for which, it's interesting, you have no USA-based dealer competition). You ended by calling the ASL brand 'shit'.
My head was spinning as I hung up. Why would you bother to list/advertise for sale items that you yourself would call 'shit'? (Whether they are or not is immaterial; don't bother going there. The point I am making here is that you advertise them and then criticize them. I suppose you call this 'classy', in your own peculiar brand of street lingo).
It was a short check from there to find out that you had once been a dealer for ASL but the relationship ended badly. These were your leftover inventory that ASL would not take back, and rather than donate the 'shit' to the junkyard, you decided to let your customers have them. Or... is this bait and switch on your part? I notice, more than a year later, all the same ASL items (or nearly all of them) are still on your sales page. What's happening there? Do you like people to call about the brand just so you can tell them it's 'shit' and steer them to a product that only you sell in this market?
You still don't get the point, and I agree with clio09 that you never will. No matter how many audiophiles, manufacturers and fellow dealers post here in general disapprobation of your techniques, you will remain, in the worst sense of the word, an original. Just not with my dollars (I know, I know, you are/were successful, you don't need them, you don't need to work, blah blah. So when's the retirement party?)
Problems with the ASL stuff were so widespread that I put those disclaimers about all sales final. I wanted them to go to guy that knew their way around a circuit board. If I were a dirtbag, the first thing I would do is take your money...not sit of stuff for three or four years.I bought three pairs of Hurricanes as my last purchase and asked the importer directly if they were problematic. He said they had some isues, but it was fixed now. At the same time the EL-34 amp they shipped in their last delivery had a problem. If you used a new old stock 12AU7 in place of the stock JJ 12AU7.....EL-34 in the #3 position would run away. And the last shipment of headphone amps needed a grid-stop resistor installed because they woul oscillate.
So here I am with these three pair of Hurricanes. I stopped selling all of it. There was no PrimaLuna at the time I made the decision, and in fact I said "no" to even the idea of PrimaLuna because I didn't think it could be done right. I had enough with Chinese stuff that didn't work.
So the expediant thing to do is tell everyone it's great...get my money, and run. Is that what I should have done? The three pairs of Hurricanes were here for years because I would warn people they should not be "beginners". So tell me the truth now that you know the facts.....what kind of person does this make me?
So I warned people as hard and honestly as I could, and that can be mis-read. Of those three pairs of monoblocs......all three failed. So I made no money, was at least true to myself, but the customer is left holding the bag.
How would you handle it?
I accept your explanation of the circumstances. I too am aware of the QC issues ASL has had (was not aware when I called you, but within a couple of days of that my research dug that up).If you had taken, say, a minute more to explain: "Mr Customer: (copy your text above here, or most of it). And that is why I'd rather see you buy something with good QC." That would have been better than summarily calling them 'shit' and saying not much else. After all, you cannot assume that I, or anyone else, automatically knows what you mean by that.
You can be a consumer advocate (the role you claim to have taken on above, and which, in good faith, I accept that you intended) while still maintaining decorum and respect for the customer's sensibilities. In other words, don't treat people like they are know-nothings and would not understand a basic explanation like the above.
I also maintain that continuing to list the poor items for sale is puzzling, and duplicity may or may not be among the reasons for doing so. I cannot tell you how to run your business, but if it were me and the calls were taking up my time to the extent that it hurt my business (how this thread got started in the first place), I would talk to my accountant of donating these to some sort of auction where they would be sold as is, no recourse, but at a significantly lower price to a buyer who knows his way around a circuit board. My 'benefit' would then become the tax writeoff and the savings in time and headache that finally dumping that stuff would get me.
As I stated, your continuing to keep the items there in light of your and my comments above is what is questionable.
You have explained your POV, I have explained mine. They don't have to coincide.
nt
In this world, everyone is a potential customer. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not even next year. I simply deal with the customer as the cards fall and leave it up to their discretion as to whether or not they think that i can help them. This even applies to knuckleheads calling or coming in to ask questions about products they bought elsewhere. Sooner or later, that "thing" that they bought will need to be repaired or replaced. Hopefully, i'll be just the person they'll turn to when that time comes. Then again, i'm in it for the long haul, not just the quick fix. Sean
>
nt
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config ... but always looking for cost effective improvements
You say, " I would contend that there exists an amount of time and/or effort to make a sale whereby the sale itself is actually DETRIMENTAL to the business. " Yes, this is true under certain conditions and it's up to the dealer determine when they apply.In the purest economic terms, if the incremental cost of completing the sale is greater than the incremental revenue arising from the sale, then the dealer should not attempt the sale. Cool, so what does that mean?
I'm sure you'll argee that "time and/or effort" cost nothing if the dealer or staff are just standing around. If the dealer has to pay the salesperson overtime to serve a particular customer, then there is an incremental cost. The most common circumstance of incremental cost is "opportunity cost", that is, where spending time with one customer might prevent a sale to another customer. Also, if a component has to be opened and becomes floor or demo model that can only be sold at lower cost, that too becomes an incremental cost -- but only if the component wasn't eventually going to be demo anyway.
The incremental revenue is often the markup of the product, but this isn't always the case. If the dealer cannot return a product or cannot do so for full refund, then the incremental cost become the full cost to the dealer less the refund if any --this is often much more than the markup. But wait! the incremental revenue he stands to loose is potentially more than even this in the longer term.
By refusing to demo a product and/or being rude to a customer he suspects will buy elsewhere, he may come out ahead in the short run, but loose in the long run -- especially if that customer condemns the dealer to other potential customers: bad word travels fast. This is usually the most important consideration but the dealer will decide.
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config ... but always looking for cost effective improvements
that they are supposed to do triple flips and crawl around the floor really fast every time someone makes an impossible demand, offers to pay less than cost, or merely wants to waste countless hours of time audio yacking and validating a purchase someone has already made elsewhere?
Most of the dealer comments I've read so far in this thread come across in a somewhat "if-it-doesn't-serve-my-interest-in-the-here-and-now-then-f**k-you-and-don't-waste-my-time" attitude. A strong reputation of customer service excellence (including respect), trustworthyness and value are probably the most powerful assets a dealer can have in any business. Sure there are people who can be a pain, but its critical to view each potential customer in a positive light. Qualify, but do it with respect and patience.
It's up to them whether they compete and stay in business.
Bill Bailey
___________________________________________
See my stereo config ... but always looking for cost effective improvements
The poster that suggested I keep my mouth shut was right. The potential customer has to make a one sided satement, and I have to explain the entire qualifying process behind any business meeting and the way we operate.Here's a couple answers:
One poster mentioned "you would think he smuggled the speakers in". The Sumiko policy is they will not sell parts into speakers that were not shipped to U.S. dealers by asking you for a serial number, hence stopping trans-shipping from dirty sources from overseas. Other companies do it too. Going both directions. More so now with the weak dollar maing U.S. goods cheap in Europe.
I have been very lucky and thankful to the customers that have made us do fine business-wise, and made the decision a couple years ago that if I smell trouble to steer clear of it. After 30 years in this biz my intuition is pretty good. If I lose a couple sales it's unfortunate, but what I gain in having fun with the customers I love and enjoy, ad maybe adding a couple years to my life, is worth it.Most of my business is repeat and referral, and after losing some people very dear to me I have learned life is too short to regret the price I paid for one waisted day that God has given me. You can't put a price tag on that.
But regardless some customers are abusive. This guy was nice enough on the phone. But if I see that his last purchases have been used, and he even stated "my policy is that if I demo it I will by it from the dealer" but has nothing to support THE ACTION, words are cheap. Even his purchase from me....I'd be happy to give you the details on with his permission. I keep every e-mail and every invoice from day one.
I have a guy named Ken M and his caller ID says "CTY of STA CLRA". He has wasted hours of my time, time after time, when indeed he was dealing in damaged goods he was buying/selling on A-gon. I finally demanded he stop calling me. He the started disguising his voice and using fake names but isn't too smart about caller ID. I get stuff like this daily...not the exact same motions, but same effect. So when he does that, he reduces the time I have for real customers. I finally a week ago got both his home and work number and next time he calls I'll give him one warning: I'm calling your boss if you do it any more.
So am I perfect? No....and never will be, But we have been successfull and have a very good formula, and most of all I look forward even after all these years to get to work. Most guys burn out. I started at 8AM and it's 11PM now
One day I will put up our favs. I have BS sessions about some of the "known offenders" that are so notorious that every dealer and company know of them. But that 5% sure make it tough on everyone else, and I'm truely sorry for collateral damage to those that don't desrve it. This is a pretty dumb industry that eats it's own young.
If you notice, the people that bitch rarely will give you a full ID on themselves. Besides that this year has been the busiest and most demanding ever.
It is up to you if you do this.
After reading this I wouldnt purchase from kevin sure others are thinking the same not.I think most audiophiles have purchased something online so all of them are not eligable to purchase from you? Think you are over reacting maybe business is bad and causing stress.
I can't beleive you actually posted this , it puts you in such a poor light and basically proves the original posters point about his mistreatment. Seems the customer never screwed you over ever , unless buying from you in 98 and not agian falls into that class. Yet you told him to go jump when he , within his rights and within his mandate to minimise costs, made an enquiry. It would have cost you nothing to be polite and gained you everything.
I quote and do samples and attend to all customers , not everyone buys the product from me but I would never dream of telling them to FOAD if they did find a similar product cheaper. Thats what Im in business for , to serve the customer and by merely serving them does not mean they are obliged to purchase from me , I win some , I lose some. Thats business!!
Rodney Gold
have been made known. The contents and nature of the original post and Kevin choosing to only refer to Asylum posts tells me there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye.
side with a fellow dealer and justify it by assuming there is something more negative about the potential customer left unsaid. I'm not jumping on Kevin. In fact I've been buying NOS tubes from Upscale over the net for years, and I've always received good service and good product. In this case I think his attitude/behavior makes little sense.Does he "carry" that ONE pair of speakers - and keep them boxed - solely in case a customer who's bought several items from him *recently* walks into the store and says "I'll take them." without an audition? Don't know about your customers, Bruce, but when I bought my speakers from a dealer I sure as hell wanted to hear how they compared to other speakers that dealer carried that were near my price point. Had the dealer told me "Well, they're boxed up and I don't want to bother setting them up." I'd have wondered why the hell he claimed to carry that model.
Are we to think that Kevin had read the posts of the potential customer *before* talking to him, and recognized it was the same person? If not, then why provide links to those posts now?
Automatically disqualifying potential customers because they've bought items on-line and/or haven't purchased anything from you in 8 years would certainly disqualify a lot of us. The one obvious advantage B&M dealers have over net sales is providing face to face help/service/knowledge and *auditioning*. Dispense with those advantages - as Kevin apparently did - and there is no reason to buy from B&M dealers. I understand the frustration dealers must feel when people just use their time/space as a free audition and then buy from the cheapest on-line seller. But in this net age I think the onus is on the B&M dealer to attract/keep customers by displaying and emphasizing the advantages a B&M store has. Kevin did not do that.
I've never had a problem with Upscale, and I expect to continue buying excellent tubes from Kevin. I think he screwed up with this guy though.
"Automatically disqualifying potential customers because they've bought items on-line and/or haven't purchased anything from you in 8 years would certainly disqualify a lot of us."That was the biggest mistake he made, indeed.
I referred to it as "bizaare customer profiling".
Cheers,
Presto
I just opined that all the facts aren't on the table. I'd bet the farm on it. I've only met Kevin once (at CES) so I don't know him. He has a great reputation, though.I do not dispute that there are rude people out there, both in and out of audio, and both customer and seller. There's just something about what I've read here that doesn't click.
"It's said that 'The customer is always right' but usually the customer is always wrong, you just can't let him know."Over the decades I've taught dozens of guys the necessity of being a better customer, how to develop "a friend in the castle", how to get invited to parties etc. etc. (Thirty years ago a local dealer took me into the shed out back and lit up a j. That set me thinking... he must like me! What did I do?)
Still, withall, I think the advice I first offered below would have disappeared any controversy: "You should have called him right back and nipped the antagonism in the bud."
clark
.
I do believe Rodney (and even Presto, below: "Here is what I would do") have nailed the dealer's attitude and mistakes. I have been on the receiving end of very similar treatment from KD, this when he knew NOTHING about me, I had not been a previous customer, I live way too far away to waste his time auditioning, etc. When I read the OP before it had any replies, it was glaringly obvious who it was, and this BEFORE reading the reference to show gear, later in the post.Posts like this pop up about him from time to time. Each time, he will appear late into the thread, not unlike some avenging dragon, and attempt to vilify the poster by glorifying himself in a churlish way (cash flow and strong backs, indeed). Having a lot of inventory does NOT make you a hero. Buying cheap from manufacturers and then selling with normal or near-normal discounts does NOT make you a champion of the impecunious. I took a little time to review the demo/specials/used page. Didn't find any screaming bargains there, I'm sorry.
Further: in addition to some phrases that some might deem unprofessional ("roachy used pieces", like all audio gear is roachy once used), there seem to be some instances of him making his own rules, esp re the English language. Consider this example, edited for brevity: " ...like new condition, not even fully broken in ... Originally purchased from us then customer decided to go with separates. Retail with cap upgrade is about $xxxx. Call to discuss. This is not a used unit, so don't expect a used price tag. "
So what is it if not a used unit? A store demo? Didn't the purchaser open and use it (implied in "not even fully broken in")? That makes it USED, dude. I know it's not a car, but you do know that old chestnut about "drive a car off the dealer's lot, it loses $xxx grand"? Audio seems to work the same way IME. Go check out all the Audiogon ads where the item is only a few weeks old, and selling for USED prices, roaches NOT included.
No doubt KD will be back to "rip me a new one". Kinda appropriate, coming from him.
Speaking from personal experience I bought some tubes from Kevin and they were noisy, especially considering they were his top rated grade. When I called to question him about it all I got was some rant about his thorough testing process and how great his tubes are and how great his customers think he is and it must be my equipment....you get the point. He refused to take them back.On the contrary Andy from VTS sold me a nosiy pair of Sylvania 6SN7W tubes and when I inquired he immediately offered me a refund, no questions asked.
I'm sure a lot of people have pleasant stories to tell about Kevin and that is fine. However, it amazes me as to the nmumber of horror stories like this I hear or read about him. More than a couple of these stories is too many IMO for any dealer. This is the fourth one on Kevin that I can recall.
A local friend told me the almost identical story re tubes from KD! Seems this sort of bullying and intimidation is his MO.I too purchased some tubes recently (from TTS though), one of which was bad. Got an instant refund on the pair, no questions asked. Have not had the, um, pleasure of doing so from KD, and never will.
I feel you. The place I worked for bent over backwards for clients yet had to close two of the three locations on the past few years. The strokes expect the world and only want to pay 5 cents for it and then complain when their favorite store closes. They're not "customers", they're the ones killing the market of high end two channel. Not to mention hair loss among salespeople...
.
- This signature is two channel only -
The Sonus Faber I purchased from some guy in Oregon. I didn't think to get the receipt for service ability. I had heard Sonus Faber over the years at shows and some dealers but it is not like I did a recent long audition and went out and purchased them used.The Spendors I audtioned at two shops because they both had different models. The 2/3's were purchased from one of those dealers through his ad in audiogon. They were a trade in.
I wished you had just said you did not have any Opera speakers for demo. That would have been the end of the story. I don't want dealers opening new stock for me to demo for two reasons. First, they aren't broken in. Second, if I don't like the speakers I would feel guilty.
As a dealer you have the right to screen your clients but please be up front about it and people will respect that. "F... people that turn around and buy on audiogon" followed by "thank you" and hanging up is what ticked me off. I admit to buying on audiogon but I am not the use the dealer so I can get a better price on audiogon type of person.
My apologies for including info in my original post that people could use to discover who you were. That was not my intent. I just wanted to vent and hear if others have experienced similar from B&M dealers.
You shouldn't have to explain your buying history to KD. To me it's a bit like the fish explaining his eating habits to the noisey pissed-off fisherman who hasn't a clue.
There generally is.
nt
My first thre calls were guys asking about Cary and Musical Fidelity gear. New stuff. It was quite funny that all three were from Jersey.Two wanted technical help in understanding the product....understand while this is happening I have messages beingg let in front of me left and right. All they want is a few minutes of ex[ert advice. John Ruttan at Audio Connection is their dealer and I send 'em back their. But if I do that.....let's say 30 minutes 6 times a day which could happen as a minimum w/ people I can't do business with, that's three hours a day. Then to properly demo three sets of speakers for Robert as he requested...
I would be out of business. Any successful dealer will have to say "no" sometimes. Why do you think your local dealer is gone? Think about it. And be honest.It sucks....but people at Audiogon have turned it into a commodity with "Auctions stating at $1". The quality of buyers that go their is horrible and now private parties don't even want to deal with it. Now look at my used page. It has doubled in size recently.
While I am typing this a guy bought a used preamp somewhere and it doesn't work right. Intermittent hum. He doesn't call the seller. He doesn't call the manufacturer. He is on the phone w/ Jared sitting to my right......and is pissed we won't go through and trouble shoot everything with him. Are we wrong in qualifying and saying "no"?????
Kevin, I do have to agree with what you are saying. I too have found myself spending half a day auditioning products for a customer only to have them say "I'll think about it and get back to you", only to find out later they ended buying it from AudioGon.Dealers have overhead and yes, we have to make money. This is what makes it possible to have these products available for you to audition as well as become familiar with them ourselves to be better able to offer you, the consumer, knowledgable advise and information on them.
There are too many so called "dealers" out there that have nothing more than a website loaded with products they can "get for you". Product they have never even seen in person. Ask them a question about it (other than price) and they are as lost as you are. These types of "Internet" dealers do no good for the audio industry and only bring to the honest, dedicated dealers more grief. Why should we do their job for them. Might as well hand them the keys to our business.
I now have to to turn away a good number of people asking for my time to help them through a problem they are having with a piece they purchased used from A-Gon. Not because I don't want to help them but simply due to the fact that I do not have that kind of dispossable time. I learned the hard way that if you do it once, they WILL try to take advantage of you. This takes time away from loyal as well as potential, sencere new consumers that want professional information to help them make the right purchasing decision from our facility.
In all fairness, I will give some credit here. There are a few consumers out there that do respect the time of a dealer. I have had a few (very few) that I have helped on the phone and then found a check in my mailbox a week later with a note thanking me for taking the time to help.
Working with consumers in the indutry is a time consuming process and it's only fair to give some curtisy to dealers. Sure you can save some money buying used but like buying a used car, are you really sure what you're getting. Seeking out and purchasing from a reputable dealer may save you a lot of grief and potentially a lot of money in the long run.
Bill
Dulcet tones and a polite attitude explaining you are busy , can't support the product and would suggest a loacal agent will work wonders , the time is worth the good PR ..
Having exposure like this on the internet and a crass rude attitude is bad for business. If you are getting a huge amt of trivial calls a day to the detriment of you functioning , hire a receptionist/PA that can screen the calls , take messages and phone ppl you want to speak to as well as generally act as a buffer You can then do the real stuff , make money and have a less harrasing day (You sound extemely stressed and burnt out).
One of the first contacts a customer has with a business is the phone , make VERY sure that that first impression is good , a receptionist makes it look good , efficient , professional.
Rodney Gold
It's the business paradigm now. The Internet has changed everything and it's a consumers world. If you don't like it maybe you should consider getting out.
If you buy something from me, I will support it above and beyond the call of duty. Even if you blow out your amp while hooking things up incorrectly when preparing for a party on New Year's Eve. You'll be up and running in time for your party. But if you bought on Audiogon and that happens, why the hell should I go out of my way and treat you as if you were a past customer or client? It doesn't mean I won't help, you'll just have to wait until it fits my schedule.There are two sides to this paradigm shift, it isn't one sided and mean the dealer has got to be a kiss-ass no matter what the circumstances are.
He wasn't asking for free support for his Audiogon purchases.He was merely being chastised for making the purchases in the first place, which was none of the salseman's damn business, really.
Cheers,
Presto
x
...
nt
nt
Robert Joe, I'm sure you didn't mean to upset Kevin but you must have somehow touched a nerve.I have purchased equipment off and on from Kevin and Upscale Audio for years. I've always been honest with them and they have always been honest with me. Kevin Deal has saved people alot of time and trouble over the years and has, along with other industry leaders, stimulated demand for new and affordable tube gear. His prices are fair, his policies are fair and it is only right that his time be respected as well as your perceived right to be treated a certain way.
Everyone who is bashing the demise of the brick and mortar dealer needs to understand that far too many brick and mortar dealers don't stock squat....they order it in for you. Kevin however not only stocks some equipment, he stocks WAREHOUSES full of expensive inventory so you can get what you want when you want it.
Kevin and Upscale Audio get only thumbs up from me for my excellent treatment over the years and for the sage advice he always dispenses. There is no telling how much equipment he has sold for all of those out there who call him up with numerous questions but who buy elsewhere, either on the used market or through another dealer who did not know the answers to the questions or system setup and synergy.
Fight the power Kevin!!!
This ain't my fight.Fuhgeddaboudit.
Joe can stick up for Joe if Joe wants to.
Cheers,
Presto
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