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In Reply to: Pity the audiophile who trusts his/her ears, eh? posted by bjh on February 13, 2007 at 07:14:13:
A favorable review from a magazine, friend, or salesman, that led to the audition of that component could bias what was "heard" if the component's brand/model was not hidden during the audition.A person who really wanted to trust his own ears would NOT want to know the brand/model of component he is auditioning because those facts are not necessary to judge the sound quality.
This is just common sense applied to prevent what you know (or think you know) about a component from biasing a purchase decision that you really want to be based on sound quality.
Maybe YOU need to know the brand and model of component in use to determine how it sounds.
I don't.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
Follow Ups:
How to explain audiophiles--scads of 'em!--who read the good review and end up not liking the unit or, even worse, preferring the sound of a cheaper one with a less impressive faceplate?
Power cord audibility is strictly overactive audiophile imaginations.The power cord is not part of the DC music circuit within a component, except for very brief AC power inputs.
Power cords have no effect on room acoustics.
They are equivalent to Clever Clocks, except in a rare instance of unusual RFI that COULD be affected by a power cord.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
. . . the way you bob and weave while avoiding answering the question. ;-)I'll bet your wife loves you for it.
Meanwhile, I manage to overcome my imagination on a regular basis and evaluate components, drivers, and parts by how they sound. The results often surprise me. Apparently they'd surprise you, too!
If my aural judgment were that succeptible to "imagination" I'd have a lot of trouble doing the work I do. In fact, I'd be unemployable.
Power cords have no effect on the DC music cicuits, or on room acoustics.
Differences" are entirely in your imagination.
An active imagination has nothing to do with "evaluation".
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Audiophiles are perfectly capable of making judgments about the sound of things without regard to the bias they may or may not incur from positive reviews, manufacturers' reputations, internet postings, the thickness of the faceplates, or the price tags. That audiophiles routinely overcome such biases to the extent that they often prefer less "impressive" products. And that audiophiles sometimes hear no difference at all.Except for power cords.
Real audiophiles always claim to hear a difference.If they don't, they will be called Tin Ears and told they have a Mid-Fi stereo. You could look it up.
It's not possible to know something about a product and then be completely neutral during an audition.
Maybe a Vulcan from Star Trek could do that, but not humans.
The fact that you are auditioning a component already suggests you walked in with a positive opinion about it.
Just asking a salesman to hear a specific component is a statement about yourself as an audiophile, and that statement means you want the component to sound good.
But the opinion you have AFTER the audition may have absolutely very little to do with the positive opinion you came in with.
That's because so many auditions are not done at home -- the room and every other component will be different when listening in a store, or at a friend's house.
Therefore any opinion about a component auditioned outside of your home ... is almost meaningless.
True if the component was a speaker, the mid-range and treble output in a store would be similar to what would be heard at home.
But the bass would be quite different in a different room.
Any audition of an AC cord is meaningless because AC cords have no effect on the amplitude response and timing of the sound waves we hear.
They could only affect hum and RFI ... if those problems had been audible (rare).
Auditioning an A/C cable in an audio store is the silliest thing I've ever heard about audio.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
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nt
Except for components borrowed for a trial at home, which may be for only a day or two, audio components are often judged in different rooms and used with different components than they would be in their final destination: The audio system in YOUR home.And there would different AC lines in different locations.
The usual audition methodology, which usually includes comparing components playing at different volumes, along with the possibility of imagining differences because the listener expects to hear certain things with the brand/model in use ... leads to a high probability of a listener claiming to hear 'differences'.
In fact, the typical methodology for auditioning components almost guarantees "hearing differences" even if the same component is used!
Component A heard at a store, or heard at a friend's home, is VERY likely to sound different than the same Component A heard in your own room ... simply because the rooms and associated components are different. The SPL's are likely to be different too, not to mention the AC lines.
If an audiophile wants to audition ONLY the sound quality of a component without "expectations bias', then the component must be auditioned long-term, at home, with the brand name hidden.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
"If an audiophile wants to audition ONLY the sound quality of a component without "expectations bias', then the component must be auditioned long-term, at home, with the brand name hidden."But why stop there? I mean surely if the audiophile were aware that some new component was installed this in and of itself could involve expectation bias that might well affect subjective evaluation.
Don't you think it would be better if the retailer snuck into the prospect's dwelling and secretly swapped components. Then the dealer could monitor the audiophile's internet posting to see if he/she were adopting a more favorable attitude, i.e. expressing more joy from the listening experience. If this were detected the dealer could then send out an invoice. However if no change were detected, or worst, the audiophile now seemed less pleased, the dealer could sneak in again to install some other component.
What do you think Mr. Nut, sensible ain't it?
ROTFLMFAO
(no standards = "I know what I hear and could never be wrong")
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
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No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
I do have to admit that when you follow my advice to only post (nt) posts, it saves me a lot of time. Not that I ever got past the second sentence of your message before falling down from laughing so hard from your usual lame character attack.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
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No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
that next time I try different caps or opamps in one of my DIY projects I'm going to have to tape over the brand names?When I try out new drivers in my speakers, will I have to have someone else install them?
If I had to evaluate everything I use in my stuff with a DBT, I'd still be on my first crystal radio from 45 years ago.
Fact is, when I evaluate such things--and components, too!--sometimes I prefer the cheaper unit over the hoity-toity brand, sometimes the opposite, and sometimes I hear no difference at all ! The horror!
Me neither. I just want good sound. I don't care what others think of a brand. I may read what they say but that's it. I need to try things for myself.
d
I blame Irritable Male Syndrome.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
c
Or to be more specific, a mood worse than usual!Since we are talking about AC cables, which have no proven effect on sound quality, the only two variables are whether you are in your usual bad mood, or in a really bad mood, during the audition day ... AND whether or not the brand name affects your bad mood that day.
If you are in a bad mood even worse than usual, and don't happen to like the sound of the brand/model name: "Irving Lipshitz Clever Cable", not that there's anything wrong with that, then what chance is there of you liking "the sound of" the "Irving Lipshitz Clever Cable"?
I'd say almost none.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
...were a cable named Stanley Lipshitz, would *you* listen, at last?clark
Funny to me and many others.Maybe unpleasant sounding to you.
And how would you know someone named Irving Lipshitz is Jewish?
Are you stereotyping?
Do you just assume a person's religion based on their name?
Based on my name, am I Jewish?If you have a few funny names that don't sound Jewish to you, then please provide them and I'll use them next time I disagree with you in my post.
Clark Johnsen is not a funny name.
Richard Greene is not a funny name.
Irving Lipshitz is a funny name ...
... unless your name is Lipshitz!
> If you are in a bad mood even worse than usual, and don't happen to like the sound of the brand/model name: <I'm going to assume you meant... "and don't happen to like the *look* of the brand/model name..."
Interesting conclusion. How did you arrive at it? It appears you speculated the conclusion - a cable is liked or disliked because of our mood and its appearance - based on an unproven and thereby faulty premise - that it can't be because of sound since cables have no sound.
Why not just say that if we eat peanut butter on one day, we'll like the cable and if we eat jelly, we won't? :)
At any rate, I do not like the appearance of my interconnects and speaker cables. There have been numerous products that I have loved that did not look like anything one would brag about. It's not looks. And if it's mood, then during auditions for my own personal gear, I must be in the same mood several days in a row.
Nice try but it's not an answer. See markrohr's response above.
...no evidence even! Yet behold him demanding same from others.Will he ever take a step back and look at the spectacle?
The "Bias" thing simply doesn't hold. There have been numerous pieces of gear that some reviewer has extolled the virtues of that I thought was not right for my system. There have also been pieces that were met with less than enthusiasm in the audio press that I've loved and purchased. Granted, we've all probably been caught up in the hype of something but no one has ever shown to my satisfaction that the bias argument holds any water. Quite the opposite, in fact -it falls on its face via empirical evidence.
xc
You do have more ranting experience than most.And how do you find the time to read this post, given how busy you are with your 20,228 posts?
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
as
Any theories on why it only comes up occasionally with respect to audio gear, even without DBT's?
Then again I had the "pedantic one-liner" filter on...Lemme try again... :o)
Cheers,
Presto
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No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
Which is why I neglected to include a brand name on the wire I sent ya..(actually, it never occurred to me to stamp the stuff..:-( )Did you receive the package of wire? I made the assumption that "ribbon wire" as a descriptor would satisfy customs..and you haven't answered my e-mail query..
Now the beginning of a likely even longer delay. Patience!
No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
Sheesh, that took forever. What happened, did customs rip the box open or sumptin?? Perhaps a sticker from australia or hawaii?Cool.
Be careful when separating the ribbons, I do not know if the tape I used is prone to rip. I hope there is not too much difficulty pulling the tape off the wire where the lugs will be soldered.
What am I, chopped liver?
If the wire ever gets to bjh, he'll still have to have terminations soldered to them, like lugs..I recommended he not go crazy with the lugs, just a good joint. That way, if he doesn't care for them for whatever reason, he could ship em out to somebody else for a try.
I leave that up to him..
The cost to him is a post detailing what he did, and his impression of the wire. If he does so, and doesn't want them, I requested he pass them on..and I'll eat the cost of manufacture...40 cents per meter..
Yeah, I'd like to check 'em out. What did you send bjh? Lengths etc.
I sent you a pic. It was 12 foot give or take, of a four ribbon construct. bjh will cut to size.. a valhalla clone, albeit slightly wimpy in the resistance aspect as a main, better as a biwire top.. I am considering doubling or tripling the copper to get to valhalla levels of "quoted" resistance..I say quoted, as I've never measured them for a check of the vendor's claim.Cheers, John
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