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In Reply to: Re: Agreement and disagreement posted by David Aiken on March 6, 2006 at 22:04:14:
DavidNo system will ever please everyone - lets face it. And your argument assumes that someone can define "accuracy" in a subjective manner, which I disagree with.
"I know people with wildly different systems and they all claim to be seeking accuracy"
Yes, of course, but lets face it, most people do view "accuracy" as "preference". I find that people say they want accuracy, but thats not what they buy nor what they prefer. No, to me accuracy can only be measured through objective means and then this leaves little doubt as to the reality of the situation.
"And, if one person's "accuracy" now is another's "re-interpretation", why should that change when we have the ability to reproduce things with 100% accuracy to the source when we don't all perceive the source in the same way?"
Because this question can only be meaningful if "accuracy" is ambiguous, which it is if it is defined subjectively. But when defined objectively then the above example is not possible. It either is accurate or its not, no ambiguity.
"It's possible that having total accuracy would satisfy many of us, and it may make it easier for many of us to focus on those aspects of the music that most interest us, even though there is some variation from person to person there, but I'm uncertain that it will satisfy all of us."
Of course it won't because you are talking about "preference" not "accuracy". Its very possible, and has in fact happened to me, that an accurate sound system makes a recording sound worse. That truely has to be possible right? So why should we believe that accuracy would always lead to preference? I don't believe that, not for a moment.
But lets just be clear on our terminology. If one is seeking preference then they cannot claim that it is necessarily high fidelity or accuracy. They are not and never can be the same thing. If someone wants to seek preference then go for it, but lets just be clear that what they seek is a personal thing not to be confused with high fidelity. Thats the root of most of my arguments; that people want to define accuracy as preference and this simply is not the case.
I can say unambiguously that I seek "accuracy", that this is also my personal "preference" is a seperate issue. And I am completely comfortable with someone saying that "accuracy" is not what they "prefer". But I am uncomfortable with someone saying that they prefer accuracy while the objective measurements clearly show otherwise. This is a misuse of the term.
Follow Ups:
Earl,I think our problem is that you're defining accuracy in terms of the sound produced, which is great when it comes to assessing components.
People judge accuracy on the basis of their sensations which is a different thing.
I'm unwilling to jump to the conclusion that "most people do view "accuracy" as "preference"" and I'd be very interested if you know of any studies to support that. I tend to believe most people are honest and if they say that something sounds life-like or accurate to them, that's what they mean. They're not confusing what they like with what they think is accurate. I know people who, if asked, can tell you where they think their system departs from accuracy and where they erred in favour of a preference for something rather than a different deviation. They are aware of the difference between accuracy and preference but, if they can't get accuracy they do rely on preference when choosing their unavoidable inaccuracy. I could be wrong but these are intelligent people who are honest in other areas so I'm reluctant to distrust them over this.
In fact, I can quickly think of a simple reason for someone's perceptions disagreeing with objective measurement of the sound. Let's say we have a music lover—someone whose assessments of accuracy you previously have been happy with—who has recently started to develop noise related hearing loss and neither of you are aware of this. As you are no doubt aware, this loss starts as a loss of sensitivity in the mid-range. They haven't yet developed it badly enough to bother them sufficiently to get their hearing tested, but their hearing sensitivity is measurably down in that region. They report that a system with a slight boost in that area is accurate whereas you, without the damage, hear the boost and claim it isn't. Both of you happen to be right in this case.
This isn't a "one size fits all" world, and anyone who deviates from what you regard as the right assessment of accuracy is not necessarily wrong or falsely reporting a preference.
DavidTo me accuracy cannot be a subjective judgement - we disagree here, Ok.
Your example is false for two reasons. By far the most common hearing loss is in the high frequency, not the mid frequency, but never mind that. This person still has a hearing loss when they go to a concert and so they will still find the acurate system accurate on comparison. What your saying is that they may want the sound system to correct their hearing loss. Then its no longer accurate, and they should buy a hearing aid instead, so they don't screw up the sound for everybody else.
I'm off to Brazil for a week so I won't be able to keep up this conversation, but thats Ok since it seems to be dwindling down to some very specific exceptions to the rules.
Earl Geddes
Earl,I specified noise induced hearing loss. It tends to show up first in the vocal range frequencies, not the higher frequencies. I used to work in occupational health and safety and was required to study noise problems. I suggest you read up a little on it yourself.
It's a rude shift on your part to ignore the condition I referred to and try and imply that my example was wrong because other conditions don't manifest in the same way.
Yes, a person with a hearing loss can compare things to a live performance but, as you are well aware, live performances can sound noticeably different depending on where you sit. We build an "image" of what sounds accurate over time and, if our hearing deteriorates, that image will change also but it will change sometime later than the hearing deterioration. It will not occur along with it. That's why people get their hearing tested because "things don't sound right". If there has been a loss, their standard for what sounds right hasn't yet changed or they wouldn't think things didn't sound right. We adjust over time, and adjustment occurs only after an interval. There are periods where the adjustment has not started to be made, or is incomplete, but during which the deterioration does affect a person's hearing and their judgements about their perceptions are influenced by their former hearing experience rather than their current experience.
You say " it seems to be dwindling down to some very specific exceptions to the rules" and attempt to dismiss my points but you were the one to state "the rules" in such a categorical way as to imply there were no exceptions, and to keep arguing against any suggestion that there were. In this particular case there happen to be exceptions and your categorical statement simply isn't true for everyone as I pointed out.
You could at least have the courtesy to admit, when making some of your frequent categorical statements, that there are exceptions to them from time to time.
Enjoy your trip to Brazil.
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