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Thought you guys might be interested in this. This is a photo I took of the RXQ1218KIT, to replace the bad spindle motor on my broken Panasonic DVD-RP82.Those of you who love playing DualDiscs on your players may wish to skip the next paragraph.
As you can notice, the spindle motor is tiny, not bigger than an Australian 20 cents coin. This thing is supposed to spin a disc up to DVD 1X speed. Those of you who think that DualDiscs (which are physically thicker and heavier than regular discs) are completely safe may want to reconsider, because as you can see there isn't much of a manufacturing tolerance for the spindle motor to accept heavier than normal discs. As it is, my old spindle motor broke just playing normal discs.
Follow Ups:
On page 15 of the document, you'll find the thickness range of CDs. It's very clearly not "1.2mm", but there is a certain possible range:
1.2mm - 0.1mm minimum
1.2mm + 0.3mm maximumThis is not a range for manufacture but of tolerances for slightly defective or warped discs. As posted here before all DVD-Audios even Dual-layer 2 sided ones are 1.2mm as are all CDs. This has been well documented. The goal is 1.2mm NOT THE 1.5mm to 1.6mm of DualDiscs.
Not to worry as there will be many DualDisc compatible DVD-Audio and CD players in the future which I'm sure will have a maximum tolerance of 1.8mm - 1.9mm to allow for slightly defective or warped discs.
you will see many wobble up and down and are slightly warped. This is one of the reasons for the tolerance of .3mm.
*** Wrong. DualDiscs have a thickness and weight which are permitted, according CD and DVD specifications. ***You may want to search this forum, racerguy has already pointed out that his DualDiscs measured 1.6mm, which is outside the permitted tolerance that you quoted of "1.2mm + 0.3mm maximum".
*** But your player won't break playing one. ***
But my player already broke playing "normal" DVDs and CDs. Otherwise I would not have replaced the spindle motor. Are you suggesting it won't have broken if i played DualDiscs? :-)
Do you honestly think they would put out a product that no one could use. Seriously Christine, Do you believe all the testing you have done at home with Dualdisc was not performed by manufacturers in their labs with much greater detail I might add before they were introduced to the market. They do prefer you to play them on a DVD player instead of a CD player and thats how I mostly use them but you really seem to be grasping at straws.
*** Do you honestly think they would put out a product that no one could use. ***Well, they did, and received a plethora of manufacturer warnings and disclaimers.
*** Do you believe all the testing you have done at home with Dualdisc was not performed by manufacturers in their labs with much greater detail ***
They did (after the DualDiscs were introduced) and issued disclaimers/warnings/consumer notices.
Gee, do you think perhaps the manufacturers are trying to tell us something? Or do you think it's part of a conspiracy by manufacturers to delude consumers against completely "safe" DualDiscs?
So Christine they put out a product that nobody can use you say, Hmm, I'm playing one right now with no problem and also the others I have seem to work too. I guess I must be lucky. Also my player is still working and has not self-destructed yet, must be lucky again. But since you said all is not good and everything will not work sooner or later because of all your thorough research, I shall heap it out with the trash and save myself the hassle of future financial losses and bitter dissapointment from having embraced such a failed technology. Boy, what was I thinking!
*** Hmm, I'm playing one right now with no problem and also the others I have seem to work too. ***Tell me something. Are you absolutely, positively sure beyond all reasonable doubt that prolonged playback of DualDiscs in a player not designed for them won't have a negative impact on the lifespan and reliability of your player?
The manufacturers certainly are not, that's why they have issued warnings and disclaimers.
Are you really so arrogant as to believe you know better than them? As many of the disclaimers read, you play those discs at your own risk, and if the player fails the warranty is void. Is it really worth it?
Christine do you want me to name everything in this world that includes a disclaimer that involves the words Use At Your Own Risk. Yet people do it and most people are none the worst for it. So I guess I must be considered a gambler then for so foolishly playing those evil Disc on my players despite your repeated warnings. And calling me arrogant because I choose to do so when millions of others are also doing this is way out of line. You have stated you will not be playing DD on your machines again, Fine. So let the people on this forum who are still interested in the format discuss the aspects of it without you chastising them for it.
no one is chastising anyone here as far as i can tell. i've already told daedalus that what he does with with his discs and his players are entirely up to him, and the same goes for you as well.I asked you a very simple question, which you have avoided answering. So i'll ask it again - are you sure that prolonged playback of dualdiscs won't have a negative impact on your player? what makes you think you know more than the manufacturer who has designed and built your player? so much so that you believe you can ignore their warnings?
there's also a warning on every cigarette pack and yet millions smoke every day. just because millions chose to ignore warnings doesn't make it okay. are you saying you are as foolish as they are?
remember - i did not say you are arrogant. but i asked you a question "are you arrogant enough to believe you know more than the manufacturer?" your answer determines whether you are arrogant or not. the choice is yours.
Dear Christine there are only Two things in life that were all assure of ( At least here in America) thats Death and Taxes. So I hope this answers your simple question. And yes I will go on playing my DD's and if you want to compare it to the dangers of smoking then that only proves how much you have exaggerated this whole debate with your 50 or so post related to this matter. Also if you are going to use the word arrogant in your post, I would use it more wisely because the way you respond to people who do not agree with you, could be taking as such. Now you have beaten this dead horse pretty good so can the rest of us move on discussing DD without your continued proclamations that you will no longer play them and for those that do you might end up in hell.
So far, you've eluded giving me a straight answer. What's the matter? I'm not asking you to stop playing your beloved DualDiscs on your player(s). I'm just asking a very simple question.Is it arrogant to ask a simple question?
I answered your question, what don't you understand. I'm surprised someone as intelligent as you could not figure that out. Since I'm having no luck maybe someone else can explain it to you.
***Are you absolutely, positively sure beyond all reasonable doubt that prolonged playback of DualDiscs in a player not designed for them won't have a negative impact on the lifespan and reliability of your player? ***So, is the answer yes or no?
*** Are you really so arrogant as to believe you know better than them? ***
Is the answer yes or no?
"Yes" -- I am positively sure beyond all reasonable doubt that prolonged playback of the DVD sides of DualDiscs in my DVD players, and the CD sides in my CD players won't have any negative impact whatsoever on the lifespan and reliability of my respective players (i.e. compared with a "Redbook" "Compact Disc").But I'll go further than that: If I do play the CD side of my DualDisc in a player (or CD-ROM drive) that has read issues, then I am equally confident that NO lasting physical damage will occur.
Moreover, if any of my players do break, it will most likely be the laser failing -- JUST as is the case with ALL the other 'shiny disc' players I've owned since 1983.
Your Panny was an exception -- i.e. it's motor mechanism failed with ordinary DVDs/CDs because the rotating part itself was substandard. It would have failed whatever you'd put in it. Therefore any statistical correletion you attempt to apply -- presumably based on the variable "rotational inertia" -- regarding DualDisc reliability [in your player] is utterly meaningless and irrelevant.
Some excepts from the Denon DualDisc FAQ, available on the Denon web site:*** The non-DVD side of the “DualDisc” delivers the 2 channel recording; however it does not meet the Compact Disc Digital Audio Specification and therefore does not bear the CD logo. ***
*** The DVD video/audio contents on the DVD side of the “DualDisc" do not guarantee reproduction by Denon DVD players/changers and universal players. ***
*** Since the audio side of the DualDisc does not meet the Compact Disc Digital Audio specifications found in the industry “Redbook Standard”, the data constituting the audio portion of the disc may not be read by some CD players/changers and recorders, DVD players/changers, universal players and Super Audio CD players. Even though the audio side does not meet the Compact Disc Digital Audio specification, some Denon CD players/changers and recorders, DVD players/changers, universal players and Super Audio CD players may read and interpret the audio side of the disc while others may not. The non-DVD side (audio side) of a “DualDisc” will be not able to play in a slot-type DJ or car audio players. Also, the non DVD side of “DualDisc" may become scratched or abraded with attempted playback in slot-type CD players. ***
One thing I will grant you - Denon does not specifically prohibit you from playing your DualDiscs, nor are they threatening to void your warranty if you choose to do so. But then, I also don't see any specific confirmation that your player is "certified" to play DualDiscs. So in other words, it's entirely up to you.
As for your comments on my player, you are clueless as usual. The documentary evidence is quite conclusive - but if you choose to refuse to accept the facts then tough.
You are blowing your intellectually arrogant smoke as usual Christine.
So then, answer me this: To justify your reliability hypothesis, can you tell me exactly WHICH mechanical variable(s) are you basing it on?But you can’t. Because quite simply, you know that you don’t have a clue about mechanical reliability analyses and statistical correlation; MTBFs, FMEAs etc.. They are complex subjects that professional mechanical & production engineers spend months studying and as well as applying in practice, before they release a product to market.
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There should have been long term testing done and CLEARLY this was not done or there would be not manufacture warnings and NO upcoming Dual Disc compatible DVD, SACD and CD players.They messed up and you are willing to subject your valuable equipment to their incompetence. And attack anyone who is not willing to take the risks you are.
> > There should have been long term testing done and CLEARLY this was not done. < <You are totally wrong there. The DualDisc consortium undertook a whole matrix of test scenarios. Many different players. A full reliability study using many independent samples. They know *exactly* what to expect in terms of reliability.
But had they done "long term" testing they would have foreseen all the problems and issues way before they happened.One does not design a product to work at the maximum tolerance (1.5mm) and slightly beyond and not expect something to break! That is just not logical.
There is a simple fix coming though DualDisc compatible CD and DVD players that will move the maximum tolerance to about 1.8mm to cover slight manufacturing defects and variances.
The DualDisc consortium was totally blowing smoke and you are willing to risk your equipment, as you actually believe them and not the designers who made your equipment, why? The fact is the DualDisc consortium rushed DualDisc to market without adequate testing to try to combat illegal downloads by offering extra content they cannot get on the web.
Until you can get a DualDisc compatible DVD player you are playing DualDiscs totally at your own risk.
Teresa: I suggest you get the facts directly from the DualDisc consortium (re. their extensive pre-production QC testing matrix). If you won't do that, then please put your pipe down.b.t.w. Not one manufacturer says how a machine can "break" by playing a DualDisc: Not regarding 'rotational inertia' issues. Not regarding 'laser focussing'. Not regarding 'error correction'. Not regarding disc 'thickness'. Not any of these.
Granted, some disclaimers do allude to the possibility of one of the sides getting scratched by a slot loader's pull-mechanism. But I'm not worried about that. And FWIW, the SUV'S slot-loader I did try the Keane title plyed it fine; it did not get stuck; and it did not scratch the top side of the disc. (I can't speak for other people's experiences with slot-loaders of course).
The DualDisc consortium or the people who make our DVD, SACD and CD players?I choose caution and heed the warnings of the equipment manufacturers and reframe from putting a DualDisc in my DVD-Audio player.
You on the other hand throw caution to the wind and believe the DualDisc consortium and actually play DualDiscs in your DVD-Audio player.
It's a choice and I choose to be safe and that's all it boils down to.
Martin, you've laid claim to having an engineering background. Change out of your DuaDisc cheerleader uniform for a few minutes and try to think like an engineer.Earlier you brought up to Christine > > mechanical reliability analyses and statistical correlation; MTBFs, FMEAs etc.. < < Let's talk about that.
MTBF is an average, typically determined through prior experience and estimates based on typical usage.
FMEA is a predictive analysis based on the system's intended use.
Once you take a device outside of its design envelope, MBTF and FMEA are pretty much useless!
As an example - the motor in my Yamaha racebike contains many parts, most of which have MTBF ratings based on typical usage. I expect that FMEA (or something similar) was performed in order to determine spares allocation and the like, but again, this would be based on typical usage! Yamaha warrants the motorcycle to be reliable in a typical-usage situation.
The way I use the motorcycle is far from typical. Since it is a race machine, I run the motor near redline (for maximum power output) almost constantly. I am not exceeding the tolerances, in that I do not exceed maximum rpms allowed, but since I am running it near maximum tolerance at all times, it is not typical usage so MTBF means NOTHING! Since I am pushing the motor as hard as it can be pushed without exceeding tolerance, I expect things to wear out more quickly, go out of tune, lose efficiency. This means I am frequently doing maintenance and replacing parts that would not have worn as quickly if I were using the product at less than maximum tolerance. To that end, Yamaha does not warrant the motorcycle when it is used under race conditions.
So - the disc players we have today were designed for a typical usage scenario of CDs and DVDs which are at, or very near, the specified 1.2mm thickness. MTBF is based on this. Any FMEA would be based on those design parameters. There is a maximum tolerance of 1.5mm for disc thickness, but since it is maximum, there would not have been an expectation that many discs would reach maximum. In the opposite, in fact - a close-to-1.5mm disc would tend to be a rarity prior to DualDisc.
Now comes DualDisc, with a MINIMUM specification of 1.42mm, up to 1.5mm maximum. I'll be generous and assume for discussion purposes that there are no longer any discs that exceed the 1.5mm maximum.
1.42-1.5mm is within the tolerance range, but it's MAXIMUM. Feeding a player designed for 1.2mm discs a steady diet of discs at maximum tolerance is outside the typical usage scenario, which means, just like the situation with my racebike, that MTBF becomes meaningless, and any predictions based on a FMEA would be useless.
Again, just like my racebike situation, it's reasonable to assume that regularly running the player at or near its maximum tolerance may cause parts to wear out more quickly, cause alignments to drift, and create maintenance or replacement situations that might not have occurred if the player hadn't been regularly run at maximum. Given this quite reasonable assumption, player manufacturers are well within their rights to say that they will not warrant the players if the players are used in this manner.
So, until the player manufacturers have had the opportunity to do long-term testing, and FMEA with new parameters, Teresa is absolutely correct - you are incurring risk by playing DualDiscs.
BTW, if you think that the DualDisc consortium did long-term player reliability testing (as opposed to simply testing for a minimum playback compatibility level on various players), then YOU are the one smoking something, and you should put the pipe down.
/ . . . /"Meridian does not guarantee that the CD-compatible side will play without audible errors in all players. However, attempting to do so will cause no harm or damage whatsoever to our players."
/ . . . /
[And now re. the THICKER & HEAVIER DVDPlus: ]
"DVD-Plus. Meridian is also aware of another 2-sided DVD-based disc format called DVD-Plus or OneDisc, which is thicker than DualDisc (typically 1.55mm). In the few cases we have tested, both CD-compatible and DVD-compatible layers appear to function in all our players, and no harm can come to our players by trying them."
Meridian's information about DVDPlus is incorrect:
Maybe Meridian did their own measurements.b.t.w. I have a DVDPlus album (Kasabian) and it feels thicker than my DualDiscs. (It plays fine in all my players.)
You don't own a Meridian, do you?
You are being silly.
.
The CD Blacklight is a 0.2 mm thick mat that sets on top of a CD or DVD, the disc with the mat on top of it is still thinner than a DualDisc! Yet after using it for about six months my transport stopped working. I would blame the thickness more than the extra weight but I am sure both played a part. Not only that I tried the mat in the DVP-S9000ES SACD player which replaced the Audio Alchemy and it caused the transport to make grinding and clanking sounds. I took it out tried it again with the same horrible noise. I got rid of the Audioprise CD Blacklight Mat.This is why the CD/SACD/DVD-Audio equipment manufacturer warnings make perfect sense and are totally correct.
I personally will not play a DualDisc on my DVD-Audio player. When I am able to purchase a DVD-Audio player that is DualDisc compatible I will try one but not until them.
I wonder what excuse you will make when your DVD-Audio player dies playing DualDiscs.
Happy listening (while you can),
Teresa_____________________________________________________________________________________________
AUDIOPRISM
CD Blacklight
The CD Blacklight disc is comprised of multiple laminations of synthetic materials that are laid-up in a constrained layering scheme, which provides very good damping characteristics. Conductive carbon is used on the interface surface to guide electrostatic buildup (each CD spinning inside your transport generates a static charge just by rotating in air) away from the disc. And AudioPrism's proprietary phosphorescence layer glows further to "bias" the laser, further reducing the effects of jitter. With CD Blacklight, music is more alive, neutral and detailed."
No Christine, you are not dumb. Could it be Soundgarden is too afraid to answer your simple yes or no questions?Soundgarden said, "Because those are the ONLY two sure things in life and this answer applies to your questions as well. But if you have all the answers to every question that uses the phrase Are You Sure, then you are indeed a very special person since I have yet to find a human being on this planet that can."
That is not an answer to two utterly simply EASY questions.
I shall answer them as they relate to my experience.
*** Are you absolutely, positively sure beyond all reasonable doubt that prolonged playback of Dual Discs in a player not designed for them won't have a negative impact on the lifespan and reliability of your player? ***My answer: I’m personally not risking damage to my DVD-Audio player by playing DualDiscs. Equipment manufactures have NEVER, and I repeat NEVER in the entire history of audio ever warned that a new format may cause damage to their equipment and void their warranties. Just in case you are too young to remember here are some of the warnings of the past by Stereo equipment manufactures and they have all proven true:
1) In the 70's Dupont invented Chromium Dioxide tape and manufactures warned that it was abrasive to the tape heads and would cause premature head wear. This warning voided NO warranties was true and new heads using stronger robust materials were invented and used in newer tape decks.
2) When DVD was invented it was warned it is not playable on CD players.
3) CD-R's, and CD-RW's are not playbable in many CD players.
4) SACDs CD layer is not playable in some older DVD players.
5) DualDisc are not recommended to be played in current CD, DVD-Video or DVD-Audio players and damage caused by doing so will void the manufacturers warranty. New DualDisc compatible equipment is being released this Christmas and early next year.
*** Are you really so arrogant as to believe you know better than them? ***
I believe the manufacture of my Stereo equipment, they designed it and knows how it works and what its tolerances are. Soundgarden may say these warnings are written by lawyers and that is true. But how can the manufactures be correct about Nos. 1-4 and incorrect about No. 5? Meridian has backed away a little from their warning and said that the DVD side should be OK to play, however they DO NOT recommend playing the CD side. But most other manufacturers recommend to avoid playing either the CD or DVD side of a DualDisc.
What has always amazed me is that people will risk their players to play a few DualDiscs especially considering all the good stuff is on DVD-Audio not DualDisc. Crazy? Could Soundgarden be making money off of DualDiscs?
Also it is important to look at who is pushing DualDisc the hardest: Sony Music who offers NO DVD-Audio. As I have said before Sony strategy is to destroy DVD-Audio by pushing DualDisc as DVD-Audio is only optional and they intend it to fade away, whereas DVD-Audio is mandatory on a DVD-Audio disc. Just check out the PS3, which supports DualDisc with NO DVD-Audio and SACD. I personally enjoy real DVD-Audio and am letting the makers of DVD-Audio discs know I will buy DVD-Audio but not DualDisc. Sony wants the CD/DVD format to be DualDisc and the high-resolution format to be SACD. And a lot of DVD-Audio followers are playing right into Sony's hand.
Lastly Christine I believe you are being very intelligent by no longer playing something that can and will damage your equipment.
the ONLY two sure things in life and this answer applies to your questions as well. But if you have all the answers to every question that uses the phrase Are You Sure , then you are indeed a very very special person since I have yet to find a human being on this planet that can.ps: I have had enough of this nonsense and will no longer respond any further on this particular matter.
All I required was simple yes or no answers to both questions.Like I said, your unwillingness to provide direct answers speaks volumes.
I believe you do not want to answer because you are afraid of the implications of your answers. Go ahead, prove me wrong, or be silent because your silence on this matter speaks volumes.
***
DualDisc DisclaimerDualDisc carries the DVD logo and complies with DVD layer specifications. While the DualDisc CD audio side has been designed to play on almost all existing CD players, it does not technically meet the CD specification and accordingly, does not use the CD logo.
DualDisc has been tested by independent third parties across a wide range of models and devices with results consistent with other new disc products. As of April 2005, there have been millions of DualDiscs available in the marketplace with almost no consumer complaints.
DualDisc packages must carry a disclaimer regarding the DualDisc’s playability and compliance with existing disc specifications.
Each individual label company must decide on the specific wording of the disclaimer on its product.Below is one example of a disclaimer carried on the back of the DualDisc package:
The audio side of this disc does not conform to CD specifications and therefore not all DVD and CD players will play the audio side of this disc.
***Note in particular: "it does not technically meet the CD specification". So much for Daedalus yelling on and on about DualDiscs conforming to specs.
Note also the comment about: "DualDisc has been tested by independent third parties". Yeah, right, that's about as credible as Microsoft claiming Windows has a lower TCO than Linux, according to "independent third parties." If it has been so thoroughly tested, why have nearly all the manufacturers rushed in with disclaimers and warnigs?
*** because you will know that Meridian has given "green light" for the DualDisc on their players. And these are expensive ones. ***Really? what about the meridian players based on CD-ROM drives that don't read the CD layer of DualDiscs, as reported by Martin419? Do you think Meridian have given the "green light" to those players?
*** Meridian didn't see any real dangers, see above. They are offering CD and DVD players. Conclusions? ***
Except not all of their players will play DualDiscs.
Linn is another manufacturer of expensive CD and DVD players. They seem to think there is a real danger. Extract from their web site:
***
DualDisc format - is it a supported format for Linn disc players / audio servers?No - DualDisc is not supported. DualDisc is a disc format with DVD content on one side and ‘CD’ on the other (see http://www.dualdisc.com for details). The DVD side comprises DVD-Video and/or DVD-Audio content. The ‘CD’ side is designed to play on CD players but is not in fact a CD as it is not compliant with the Compact Disc Digital Audio Specification (the industry 'Red Book' CD Standard). These discs are also thicker than standard CDs or DVDs.
As these discs are not compliant with current industry standard, Linn cannot guarantee that they will play on our range of disc players and audio servers. Nor can we guarantee that the thickness of DualDiscs will not cause problems for these Linn products – possibly damage to the product and/or the disc – if played. Any damage resulting from the playing of DualDiscs will not be covered by the Linn warranty, so using these discs with a Linn disc player or audio server is entirely at the user’s risk.
***Note, Linn specifically mentions that "These discs are also thicker than standard CDs or DVDs" and "Nor can we guarantee that the thickness of DualDiscs will not cause problems for these Linn products – possibly damage to the product and/or the disc – if played." Sounds to me like Linn is clearly not as confident as you or Soundgarden appear to be.
And lastly, "Any damage resulting from the playing of DualDiscs will not be covered by the Linn warranty" - regardless of whether Linn is scaremongering or not, as a consumer, do you really want to void the warranty on a very expensive player just for the sake of playing a few discs???
*** As you state, the motor broke playing normal discs. This is with very high probability not related to the weight of the discs at all. In other word: the cause dor a broken motor doesn't have to be the mass of the moved object. ***Do a search on the Internet for Panasonic H02 and H07 errors. This is a very common problem with Panasonic players, and the cause is well documented. You are the one speculating here, and ignoring all the research that has been done by lots of people on the internet.
Basically, the transport is based on a direct drive design. The weight of the discs rests directly on top of the spindle motor, so any additional weight (regardless of whether the disc is in spec or not) will cause additional weight to be transmitted to the spindle motor via the shaft. This will cause additional friction, which requires a higher torque to spin discs. The motor already has a tendency of burning out or developing flat spots just playing normal weight discs. The chances of it doing so with additional stress can only be higher. This is not speculation, its deduction based purely on the design.
Also, if you look at the mechanism for clamping onto a disc, the top part is plastic and the bottom part is metal. In other words, there is no provision for discs that are significantly thicker. 1.5-1.6mm may or may not be "significant", but again, any additional thickness will increase the downward pressure on the spindle motor, which increases friction, which increases probability of failure.
Note that I never said that DualDiscs were not playable on ALL players, but I definitely wouldn't recommend them on this particular transport design. I would suspect DualDiscs should be relatively safe on a belt-drive design where the upper part of the transport clamp is made of a rubber like compound to accommodate discs of varying thicknesses (such as the Sony transport in my very old Denon CD player).
Panasonic *should* be issuing a disclaimer, but the cynical part of me suspects they are afraid of drawing attention to the fact that their transport appears to be marginal playing "normal" discs, let alone DualDiscs.
*** I don't see any proof that these problems are related to the weight of a CD or DVD. Bad motor and drive design, nothing else. ***You missed out on the postings which confirm that tilting the player, which shifts the weight of the disc away from the motor, decreases incidence of the problems.
Anyway, the "proof" is clear by examining the design of the transport. It is a direct drive design, so the weight of the disc is directly bearing on the spindle motor through the shaft, so of course these problems will be affected by the weight of a CD or DVD. It's not "theory", it's basically the laws of physics.
*** I find it worrying that a company with the reputation of Panasonic is offering players with so common and obvious problems, and I hope they will fix this. ***
The problem is fixed. The replacement part number is RXQ1218KIT, orderable from any Panasonic spare parts distributor, which I have taken a photo of.
I too find it worrying that Panasonic players have these problems, but this is not uncommon. As you know, there was (is) a class action suit on Sony for the tendency for the lasers in their DVD players failing. And the Linn Silver Disk Engine is so picky the transport regularly rejects discs that look perfectly fine to me - needless to say I will not be brave enough putting a DualDisc into a Linn Unidisk!!!
*** You should be aware that Panasonic in some cases might buy drive parts and whole transports from manufacturers in Taiwan or (mainland) China. ***
No, Panasonic might source parts from all over the world, but the parts are designed to Panasonic specifications, since the transport is a Panasonic design.
*** But a disc <1.5mm fits. Because Panasonic is (still) able to read the specs. :-) ***
Sorry, I wasn't aware that you have conclusively proven beyond all reasonable doubt that ALL DualDiscs manufactured to date are below 1.5mm. And even so, I'm questioning the ability for this particular transport to accept discs significantly different from 1.2mm, even discs that are still within spec. This is pure speculation, of course.
So, bottom line is - I will not be playing any DualDiscs on my panasonic. You are free to believe whatever you want and do whatever you like - they are YOUR discs and YOUR players.
Yup Daedalus as you can see some people here believe the Sky is Falling and we should all run for cover or in this case we should dig a deep hole and put our DVD players and Dualdisc in it, then cover it with 4 feet of cement to protect ourselves from permanent harm.
as i've said before, it's your player and your discs, so you are free to do whatever you like with them.but next time someone reports problems (have you seen Anthony Horan's post below? scary ...) yelling out that the discs are within spec, and they are confusing between facts and theories, or that someone must be wrong just because they post a measurement that doesn't agree with your world view ... reveals more about your insecurities than anything else.
after all, if you are supremely confident that these discs absolutely under no circumstances whatever have any impact on your players, then ignore these posts because they are clearly wrong.
> > I doubt that racerguy can do this better than me. :-) < <Riiight. So I must have built my race motor using chalk, string, and a wooden yardstick.
> > Even so, a company got slightly different (and supoposedly exact) values than me for the same disc... < <
Then one of you did it wrong. It couldn't have been, you, since you are so absolutely sure that only you can do it properly.
> > I only doubt that you could measure better than me. :-)I used a micrometer screw, which usually gives very precise results. < <If a micrometer screw gauge is the most precise instrument you have used, then you are not capable of getting a better measurement than I can.
> > They didn't have a hidden interest in measuring something wrong, because they don't produce DualDiscs. So I believe them. < <
That's nice. I don't produce DualDiscs either. And I don't have any hidden interests either. I make no secret of the fact that I think they have problems; an opinion I reached by buying and trying.
> > So, I didn't measure well even with the best "household" equipment, and I took utmost care in this. < <
I shall attempt to educate you about "household" equipment that I have. As I mentioned, I built a motorcycle race engine with my "household" equipment. Numerous components of production motorcycle engines have clearances measured in thousandths of a millimeter; when you build a race motor you pay even more attention to those clearances than when working on a standard "street" motor. The penalty for failing to measure properly or with sufficient precision is a blown-up motor. My motor has never blown up.
So, despite NotMe's foolish, baseless and petty remarks to the contrary, I do know how to use measuring tools. I doubt you can measure better than me ;-)
Lastly, I'll point out that there is independent corroboration for too-thick DualDiscs. DualDisc cheerleader Martin419 claimed to have received information from Sonopress in which they admitted to having manufactured discs thicker than 1.5mm.
> > I am not sure that your equipment cam measure thousands of millimeters. < <It can.
> > It will show these values, but you would have to confirm this with another instrument and check if you got the same results. Did you do this? < <
Of course. Blowing up a motor because of a miscalibrated instrument is a rookie mistake. I have more than one example of each measuring tool, and I check their accuracy periodically with various items of known (and unchanging) thickness.
> > Even if you are able to measure DualDiscs precisely, I am still waiting for an answer WHICH disc was measuring "1.6mm". This is a fair question, I believe. < <
Search. It's all here.
> > I believe that this is referring to the former DVD-plus discs they have manufactured since about 1999 in Europe. (I am living in Europe.) These discs were firstly 1.7mm thick, later they got it down to about 1.55mm. < <
I am familiar with the DVD-Plus. I own several. I do not believe that the reference was to DVD-Plus.
> > I would be very surprised if Sonopress is releasing DualDiscs which are thicker than 1.5mm TODAY. < <
According to what Martin419 posted, they say they are no longer doing so.
> > I never had any problem with the disc thickness, and we were discussing exactly this question. < <
I have, which is what caused me to start measuring. Again - search. I am not the only person to report problems directly due to thickness.
It's clear that Daedalus is just not willing to accept the facts, and dismissing my observations about the design of transport (which are based on application of the laws of physics) as mere unsubstantiated speculation, and of course you are simply not qualified to measure DualDiscs, so your measurements are simply wrong, wrong, WRONG :-)everything is perfect, there are no issues playing DualDiscs, anything who reports problems must be an SACD cheerleader or incompetent, or simply own a bad player. Worse still, they are obviously part of the Dark Side of the Force and plotting to bring about the destruction of the Galactic Empire!
Criticism of DualDisc is NOT ALLOWED. You are only allowed to criticize SACD in this forum. Or vinyl ;-)If you post criticism, you must be a cheerleader for the other team. If you post criticism based on photographs, measurements, testing, or other concrete data, you are a missionary of evil, with hidden interests, ulterior motives, and bad intent, so you must be shouted down! If enough people shout loudly enough, the shouting counteracts the evil you have brought into the group and nullifies any data you provided ;-)
So, since you have been shouted down by three different posters, your seditious photographs have been vanquished!
*** I still don't think the the presented photographs are related in any obvious way with DualDiscs. ***Still refusing to accept facts, I see. I noticed you have not refuted my application of the laws of physics, nor the evidence that tilting the player alleviates the problem, and therefore the problem is weight related.
How about telling us what player you use? And can you prove, using "objective" scientific reasoning, beyond all reasonable doubt, that that using slightly thicker, heavier discs (whether or not these discs are in spec) have absolutely zero impact on the lifespan? Feel free to quote measurements, design parameters and actual data instead of your "objective" opinion.
*** 2. You DO own a bad player. ***incidentally, which player do you own? are you absolutely sure it is not based on a sony, panasonic or philips transport (these are the top three OEM manufacturers for transports) - there have been problems reported on transports from all three companies. again, do a search.
*** 3. There are issues with the DualDisc. ***
Care to elucidate? This is the first time I've heard you say there are issues ... What are they?
*** The problem I see is the compatibility of the CD layer, namely on DVD readers. This is a real problem. ***I'm glad you are acknowledging that there is in fact a problem, which some people on this forum don't seem to want to do.
I think the problem is more widespread than that. The thickness seems to be an issue on many slot loading players, and many PC DVD drives seem to have real issues as well (with the CD layer, mainly).
*** BTW, you should have noticed that my approach to the DualDisc tries to be "objective". ***
In what way - all i've noticed so far is a lot of heckling, refusal to accept facts, and blind quoting of specs with no data to show that ALL DualDiscs fit within the specs.
*** Note that the DualDisc IS a DVD. It's within all specifications. I believe that I can judge this. :-) ***
Care to point out how you believe you can judge this? I'm waiting on some evidence from you (feel free to quote pressing numbers and actual measurements by the way) that conclusively prove that you have instituted a comprehensive measurement programme that demonstrates that ALL DualDiscs, including the ones I own and the ones racerguy once owned, are within spec.
If you like, I can quote you the pressing numbers of my 3 DualDiscs, so that you can look it up in your database (you *did* record all your measurements into a database, did you not?)
My "commentary":I really don't care. All this has been hashed out before - it's all in the archives, and you can find it with the SEARCH function. If you're waiting for me to repost it all because you're too lazy to find it yourself, you'll wait a long, long time.
As to measurements - I have explained to you the tools I have used and why it is that I believe my measurements are accurate. If you are not willing to accept that explanation, that's fine. I really don't care. I will simply put you in the same category of stupid, whiny hecklers where NotMe resides.
Jimby from UMG occasionally posted here for a while. He was a good soldier for his company - he defended the products, denied any problems, ignored any questions that might uncover problems, and eventually disappeared when it became clear that there were indefensible issues and questions he could not or would not answer.
Now - why don't you go read the archives? If you have additional questions after that, post them. If they aren't stupid heckles like, "You don't know how to measure," I will probably respond. If they are, you will be, like NotMe, just wasting your time and forum message-space.
As I said, ALL of this has been hashed out previously.
.
Absolutely.Do a search on the internet for Panasonic H02 and H07 errors. This is a common problem with this particular transport design, so common that it has been discussed ad nauseam on the Internet.
In fact, when I rang up a Panasonic spare parts distributor, they knew immediately what I was talking about and they admit to have shipped large volumes of the spindle motor assembly replacement kit - so large that recently Panasonic has decided to reduce the price due to economies of scale :-)
Needless to say, with a transport like this, I will not be putting DualDiscs in it any time soon :-)
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