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In Reply to: Almost certainly not posted by Charles Hansen on February 20, 2007 at 11:25:11:
Thank you Charles. I thought there was more to this than "meets the eye". Also, Linn is very secretive about what D-to-A process and/or DAC chip is used. That's a bit of a red flag. Plus, it appears that they are using a "cheap switching power supply". I guess that's the reason it weighs only a little more than 10 pounds.
Follow Ups:
HowdyI don't know anything about the Linn Majik but there's nothing wrong with a well implemented switching supply. The Linn CD12 is still a great player and it uses a switching supply, also EMM Labs gear use a switching supply.
< < there's nothing wrong with a well implemented switching supply. The Linn CD12 is still a great player and it uses a switching supply, also EMM Labs gear use a switching supply. > >Ah, but we don't really know now, do we?
The only way to know would be to replace the "well implemented switching supply" with a well implemented linear supply, while holding all the other variables constant. Not an easy experiment, even when done by the manufacturer.
So instead we have to try and assemble a bunch of examples of circumstantial evidence and induce a speculative conclusion.
We do know that a "well implemented switching supply" will *always* generate more noise than a well implemented linear supply. This is because the power wave is nominally a square wave (with harmonics reaching well out into the megahertz range where they are easily coupled into the audio circuits), but in reality has huge transient spikes that create far more RFI than even the nominal squarewave would.
I can't think of any reason that a noisy power supply would produce better audible performance than a quiet power supply, can you?
"Well-implemented" is also a mystical term. There aren't many switching power supplies that I'd consider "well-implemented", in regard to being part of an audio component.Whenever I see the term "well-designed", "well-made", or "well-implemented" in discussing audio, it's usually a hypothetical ideal that hardly ever exists in the real world.
I'm with Ted Smith on this one. There are many pieces of well reviewed and highly appreciated gear that uses switching power supplies. Not only does the LINN CD12 use one, but so does a lot of the rest of their range. In addition to the EMM and Linn gear mentioned by Ted, the Dynavector P-75 phono stage also uses a switching supply (I own one), so does my Denon DVD2200 which I enjoy greatly.
Regarding your comment:
"We do know that a "well implemented switching supply" will *always* generate more noise than a well implemented linear supply."I agree, in general, with your assertion that Switching supplies generate higher levels of noise, but you need to consider the form of that "noise". One by-product of Linear power supplies is that the primary component of noise produced by these is a multiple of the Mains frequency caused by the regulator operation. The frequency of this noise is at 100Hz (or 120Hz in 60Hz countries). This is obviously slap-bang in the audio band. While smoothing caps and other precautions can remove the majority of this, ther will always be some residual of that frequency in the power lines. Switching power supplies however, while they may produce higher levels of noise, they do so at ultrasonic frequencies (usually at 100s of KHz), dependent on the switching frequency of the Supply.
Don't get me wrong, I am neither "pro" switching power supplies nor "anti" linear PSUs. In fact, I have and enjoy equipemnt in my system that utilises both types. However, I do believe, that before we make broad, sweeping statements about the "superior" specifcations of one technology over another, we should consider the pros and cons of each specifcation, what those specifications mean and what potential impact it has on the equipment.
Cheerswelly
I went to a restaurant that serves "breakfast at any time". So I ordered French Toast during the Renaissance.
HowdyYou asked "I can't think of any reason that a noisy power supply would produce better audible performance than a quiet power supply, can you?"
A switching supply may have more immunity to incoming power line noise, RF, etc. than a linear supply. Since it's operating freq is known it can be explicitly dealt with. As you imply it depends on the capabilities of the manufacturer...
My speculative conclusion (that switching supplies aren't all bad) is no less well founded that the converse and in fact since I've given some examples of well implemented switching supplies I'd say it's less speculative than saying switching supplies are always bad.
I'm not claiming that everyone should hope for switching supplies in components, but switching supplies aren't necessarily evil.
< < A switching supply may have more immunity to incoming power line noise, RF, etc. than a linear supply. > >I would have to say that any such immunity would be minimal, at best.
Let's look at the example of the power line "regenerators" sold by some. They (at least in the case of the original models) consisted of a conventional audio power amplifier, fed by a 60 Hz oscillator, and then with a step-up transformer to raise the output levels to normal AC line voltages.
The idea behind their operation was intellectually appealing, but only on the surface. The premise was that one could have "pure" AC power. But if the ordinary power amplifier used in the "regenerator" was somehow able to filter out the RFI present on the incoming AC power line, then why couldn't the audio power amp that was driving the speakers themselves do the same thing? Because if it could, there would be no benefit whatsoever from the power "regenerator". So (as is often the case) the proffered explanation was not necessarily correct or complete.
Similarly, if you look at what happens to the incoming AC power as it makes its way to the audio amplifier itself, there is really very little difference between a linear supply and a switching supply in terms of RF rejection. In fact, one could easily argue that the better high-frequency response of the switching transformer (compared to the 60 Hz transformer in a linear supply) would bring in *more* interference (in addition to the noise generated by switching supply by itself).
< < switching supplies aren't necessarily evil > >
No, of course not. But I would say when equal care is applied to both technologies, that a linear supply will provide superior sonic results. Please note that this does *not* mean that everything with switching power supplies sounds bad. It just means that they would probably sound even better with a really good linear supply.
This last statement is kind of like saying that since really good polystyrene capacitors sound better than really good mylar capacitors that any component using mylar capacitors (no matter how good it may or may not sound in stock form) could be improved by switching to polystyrene capacitors. (But of course in the real world, polystyrene capacitors are more expensive than mylar caps. So it might make more sense to put that money somewhere else to get even more improvement.)
HowdyMy only point was countering posts like "Plus, it appears that they are using a 'cheap switching power supply'."
I was pointing out that there are devices normally considered great which use switching supplies so people shouldn't worry so much if a designer chose to use a switching supply (especially since we were talking about a Linn and the Linn CD12 uses one...)
I'll not try to argue with you about design merits of from scratch designs, I'm a software guy not a hardware designer, but I'm still comfortable with the switching supplies in my audio gear :)
< < people shouldn't worry so much if a designer chose to use a switching supply > >Absolutely true. The only thing that counts is how the thing sounds, and if you like that sound or not.
somewhere muffled while auditioning it?
There seems to be many reasons the Majik should be a sub-standard performer in this thread, contrary to Art's review.FWIW, we plan an doing our own audition of the Linn and the Ayre 5&7 in Seattle when we get the chance...
which begs the question, is there a compromise in Redbook quality by incorporating DSD & DVD-A? Charles?We are VERY seriously thinking of replacing our Cary 308T with another CD player and sticking with the admittedly lesser Denon 5900 for hi-rez/surround/video; putting off THAT decision to some future date...
Seriously looking into Universals has given me some serious pain!
< < There seems to be many reasons the Majik should be a sub-standard performer in this thread, contrary to Art's review. > >That's not at all what I was saying (or implying, for that matter).
One question was whether the unit used an oversampling digital filter or not. I said that it almost certainly did. But that doesn't mean it will sound bad. We use oversampling digital filters in our products, so obviously we think there are advantages to using the technology also.
The original poster also pointed out that the Majik uses a switching power supply. Linn has used these in most (if not all) of their products introduced in the last five or ten years, so obviously they believe this produces superior results compared to conventional linear power supplies. I disagree, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm right.
And even *if* I am right, it could be that switching power supplies produce (say) a 3% degradation in sound quality, but that the Linn engineers have taken the money saved from a less expensive power supply and put it into some other place that produces a 20% improvement in sound quality, coming out ahead of someone less clever.
The best way (as always) is to listen for yourself, preferably in your own system in your own house with music you love.
< < s there a compromise in Redbook quality by incorporating DSD & DVD-A? > >
If price is taken into account, the answer is always "yes". Adding any feature always increases the cost. If that money were instead dedicated to performance, one could get better performance by leaving out the extra features.
But that's probably not what you had in mind. In the case of the Ayre products, the C-5xe sound better on Redbook CD than does the CX-7e. The two use the same basic approach and circuity topology, but the C-5xe uses more expensive PCB material, better capacitors, doubly-regulated power supplies, and a better DAC chip that was not available when the CX-7e was designed.
< < We are VERY seriously thinking of replacing our Cary 308T with another CD player and sticking with the admittedly lesser Denon 5900 for hi-rez/surround/video > >
The biggest problem is that unless special precautions are taken, adding a video display to your audio system will significantly degrade the sound of your system, even when the TV is turned off. So you want to be careful before you go down this path. The best thing to do is to get really clear on what you are trying to accomplish and how much performance you are willing to give up to do so.
I very much appreciate your taking the time; I realized later that my post could be taken more aggresively than I intended.You're a great asset to this forum and the asylum as a whole, I truly appreciate your input.
We look forward to auditioning the Ayres (& the Linn); we fondly remember a V-3 loaner while our Bryston 9B went back for a new power switch. We very nearly wouldn't give it back, but wanted the extra channels, alas.
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