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In Reply to: Is the Ayre C5xe better than the Cx7e for Redbook playback only? posted by jbcortes on February 15, 2007 at 07:11:16:
I recently was in the same thought pattern as you, thinking possibly that there was something that would better my AA Capitole Mk2. I thought when I had the SE upgrade completed by Globe Audio (US AA distributor) that I'd find that CD audio nirvana. Very nice indeed but still short of that "pull you in" feeling.I demo'd a Esoteric X-03 in my system (imagine that, a dealer willing to lend out a $7k player to a stranger. Wonder why he wanted my credit card?:)). Anyway, I digress. I felt the X-03 gave me that textured involved sound I really liked. SO I bought the demo from the dealer (The Esoteric X-03SE is coming out, and the dealer wanted to bring in a new demo). I really like this player, both with CD and SACD. Don't get me wrong. The Capitole Mk2 is a great player, but with my setup the X-03 delivers.
Follow Ups:
Esoteric was also an option but too expensive. They look like amazing machines though. I'm sensitive to the fact that they build their own transport, as do Accuphase now.
I think the new Accuphase DP-500 might be the way to go for me. I would get the DP-78 if I could afford it but I don't need SACD, so it would be stupid to pay that much to use half of the machine. Anyway, I've rarely if ever felt the music flow, swell and unfold in such a natural way as with the Accuphase. I'd never really paid attention to the brand, prejudiced as I was against their 70s looks, but I think I'm going to revise my priorities. After what I heard, even the look don't bother me anymore, I even find it quite classic compared to the design excesses one sees nowadays.
Anyway, I think I'm in love... CD doesn't get any better than that. And yes I've heard a lot of them, and a lot of expensive ones.
JB
< < I'm sensitive to the fact that they build their own transport, as do Accuphase now. > >Don't be too sure. The Esoterics with the "Neo" transports are definitely made by Teac. But the less expensive models such as the DV-50 used a Pioneer transport. I'm not sure about the newer DV-60, but I would surprised if they didn't purchase somebody else's transport.
The last Accuphase I looked at (introduced at the Tokyo Audio Show 1-1/2 years ago) also had a Pioneer transport. It was "dressed up" to look like something else, but it was definitely just a bog-stock Pioneer with a few bits of window dressing tacked on.
Hi Charles,
I appreciate you chiming in.
Just for the record, Accuphase just introduced their own transport as of december 2006.
Which doesn't change anything to the fact that I will try to audition Ayre products as I really like the philosophy and quality of your designs.
Best,
Jean-Baptiste
< < Just for the record, Accuphase just introduced their own transport as of december 2006. > >I could be wrong, but I think this is getting to be a question of semantics.
When Teac introduced the VRDS-Neo, I don't think anyone would argue that this was a Teac drive built from scratch, even though they don't build their own lasers or tray motors (for example). It is clearly a ground-up effort, with new innovations not seen before.
On the other hand, when Goldmund added a metal tray to an otherwise stock Pioneer transport, would you consider that their own mechanism? I wouldn't, especially since the tray doesn't even touch the disc during play.
Regarding the Accuphase, I would assume that you are referring to the DP800 SACD player (link below). It's hard to say with 100% certainty based on a fairly low-res photo, but I don't think I would consider this an "Accuphase drive". It's true that they have added a metal tray (like Goldmund). They have also added a large metal "bridge", but all that does is hold the magnetic clamping puck when there is no disc inside. Finally, there appears to be a relatively thick base plate underneath the mechanism.
This latter piece might have some small effect on the sonic performance, but this would be mitigated by the fact that the actual transport appears to be a bog-standard design where the laser sits on a piece of thin stamped metal. This metal piece has some plastic hinges at the rear that allows the laser mechanism to swing up as the tray closes. The plastic hinges will tend to decouple the laser assembly from the thicker base plate.
So from here it looks like they took a standard transport mechanism and added parts that are largely just window dressing (at least in my opinion). It certainly doesn't represent the kind of ground-up, overkill engineering found in the more expensive Esoteric players using the VRDS-Neo mechanism.
None of this is to say that the Accuphase doesn't sound great -- I've heard consistently great things about their digital players. But I certainly wouldn't compare this transport to the Esoteric VRDS-Neo, either in terms of build quality or in terms of original development work.
I understand. Thanks for the explanation. The Accuphase might indeed be a heavily tweaked transport, and it certainly doesn't look as original as the VRDS-Neo. As you say, they do sound great though, and since I hear great things about your players, it's proof that one doesn't need and over-engineered transport to make great players. But it's true that when dishing out the big bucks, I like to buy as much original/unique engineering as possible.
Best,
JB
< < But it's true that when dishing out the big bucks, I like to buy as much original/unique engineering as possible. > >Understood. If the transport mechanism is your main concern, then there is nothing that even comes close to the Esoteric VRDS-Neo. But it all comes down to pricing and trying to figure out what makes a difference and where to put your money.
So for example, the Ayre C-5xe uses the same Pioneer transport as the Esoteric DV-50 (I don't know what the DV-60 uses, but I suspect the same one also.) And perhaps it is no surprise that the US price of these two player are essentially the same.
We could have chosen to "dress up" the Pioneer transport in a way similar to what Accuphase has apparently chosen to do. But that would have added $500 or $1000 to the retail cost, and I would prefer to put that money elsewhere if I were aiming for a higher price point. Why? Simply because I strongly believe that I could get a much better improvement in sound quality for that same money by investing it somewhere else.
Teac has offered to sell us the VRDS-Neo. (There are actually two versions, a larger one in the "1" series and a smaller one in the "3" series.) There are two problems, both having to do with money. First of all, just the transport mechanism is priced so that we would have to sell our finished product at a cost well over $20,000. Now this wouldn't be so bad in itself, as I am confident that we could come up with a product whose performance would easily justify the price.
But the other problem is that they want us to purchase 50 at a time, payable in cash 6 months in advance. Plus there are no licenses or royalties included. So it would cost us over $300,000 in up-front money to get into that game. I doubt we could sell over five or ten a month at the price we would have to charge, so it would basically just be a money losing operation for us.
Furthermore, anyone interested in paying that much money for a digital player has the specter of the new video format (HD-DVD and Blu-ray) looming over their purchasing decision.
So the final decision is up to you. You can either invest in a machine that has a work-of-art transport and rather ordinary electronics (although to their credit, at least the Esoteric doesn't use a cheap switching power supply), or you can purchase a machine with a more ordinary transport and innovative, state-of-the-art audio electronics, power supplies, and clocks.
Thanx Charles,
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