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In Reply to: Ditto...however, posted by Audio Pharaoh on November 7, 2006 at 10:32:13:
"Some of today's $4K+ players still have problems," which makes my point even more forcefully. A good (toploading) transport mechanism, comparably good power supply, high performing capacitors, resisters, etc. are very expensive. And perhaps even more important, a work force that can assemble a complicated machine skillfully?!! How many hours should it take to assemble a good CDP? Three? Six? What do you have to pay semi-skilled assembly people? $30/hour. And they have benefits and the plant has to be paid for or rented and heated...I considered my Naim CDX/XPS a good and durable machine, and that cost $6/7K (I think) nearly a decade ago. The Audience modified Sony 999 also seemed good and strong (though it wasn't around here long enough to tell for sure) and sounded very damn good for around $5K. That was around 2-3 years ago. It will be interesting to see what the new Audio Note one-box players are like when they finally come out. There is one in development that uses the Philips drive and a Dac 2.1 Signature that looks very promising but I'm guessing it will retail in the neighborhood of $8K. As cruel as it can't help but sound to those without lots of money to spend, my educated guess is that $7-8K is what a truly excellent AND durable one-box player will cost for the rest of this decade. That's why I always cringe when somebody comes on here asking about a good, cheap transport, dac, or one-box player. It's a fair question to ask but the answer is, well, cruel. What can I say?
The car metaphor is the right one. You can get basic transportation that won't break for around 75K miles for $14-16K, right? But if you want a virtually guaranteed 150K, you're in the twenties, and not much longer in the low twenties either. Labor and parts, parts and labor. And then a few folks along the chain have to make a living.
Follow Ups:
I understand that a good player is expensive to build, especially for smaller companies. However, as AP suggests, if you compare what $600 can get you in the 80's or early 90s, and what $1200 can get you now, the quality has just slipped so much in the past decade. Yes, if you are talking $6K products, then I am sure they are still good (they have to be good). But $600 in the early 90s (take the budget Denon) give you a solidly built player, with very well built metal casing, and made in Japan. Nowaday, $1200 give you a flimsy 3kg machine that is made in China. Skillful worker that get paid well? I don't think so.Honestly, 10 years ago I would just buy a machine and assume that it will work for 10 years, if it doesn't, maybe just bad luck. But now, if I get a machine that works for 5 years, I think I am very lucky.
And also, software bug in a CD player was rarely heard of, now you can see it happening everywhere. Even in power amp thermal protection circuit!
Sure, the new players usually sound better than the old ones, and with a lot more features, but I rather have something that works longer.
"Yes, if you are talking $6K products, then I am sure they are still good (they have to be good)."Not necessarily. There's plenty of $6K crap out there. I'm just saying that it seems that you can't make a really good sounding one that's also durable for much less than that.
That's not to say you can't make bad ones for that price too! I would not equate price with quality but I would be suspicious of CDP's that don't cost around that much.
"Sure, the new players usually sound better than the old ones, and with a lot more features, but I rather have something that works longer."Well again, 'the new players' covers a lot of ground. I've had some 'new players' pass through here in the $5-7K range that stank and were already failing, software in particular, as you say.
I can't generalize because I don't keep track of much gear these days. But I do know that the good ones I've heard that also seem durable cost at least that much; and some cost more.
I agree with what you are saying. I just wonder why they can make reliable products 15 years ago at a low cost but not anymore nowaday.
Guessing:1. Attitude of workers and cost of benefits (medical)
2. Cost of materials (where silver & copper are involved especially)
3. Inflation
4. Dollar/Euro/Pound
5. Decline of Civilization
6. ?????
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