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I am really disappointed with 'high end' audio - I had an AA DDEV3.0 and it failed about 6 years. My Teac VRDS10 had problems a few times during the first few years I owned it and recently the drawer mechanism starts to fail again. It is 12 years old now so I don't think it worth fixing. Then I bought a Denon DVD player (about $300) and it is unable to track any CDs and DVD after about a year (just out of warranty!). I bought a $25 DVD player from DSE and it has been good for almost 2 years now!Now I am too afraid to buy a new CD player. And when I said to my wife that I want to get a new Rega Apollo or a cheap CD player + good DAC, she said - honey, get anything you want, but just make sure it works.
I really have no idea what I should get ...
Follow Ups:
2- JVC xl-z1050's both at 16 years with no malfuntion of any type...
I gave up entirely on the Audiophool CD treadmill after seriously trying to buy a "good" (read expensive) unit a few years back
. Audiotioned several Silly priced units at dealers except I always took along my old and unloved Sony as a personal reference point. Damn if none actually outperformed it.. And this in Dealers own carefully contrived rooms. Went back to my analogue setup for a few years. Finally bought one of those Cheap Toshiba DVD things (sneer all you want it was $50!) Fiddled with it, did the intelligent portions of the then popular mods..tried a few of my own as well. @ years later it still amazes Easily equaling my Vinyl setup.. Frankly there are Few players regardless of Cost, that achieve that one. Bought a second identical DVD against future needs :-) .. But the thing has not hiccuped.. even once.. in the 2 years since reassembly.
All I can say is : stop rubbing the itch (reading those Ridiculous Magazines) ignore the naysayers and you may be seriously surprised at how little 'damned good' can cost.
Many people on the PC Audio asylum have replaced their expensive transports for better sound. Hard Drives are more reliable than CD-ROM type trays. You have the convenience of using a PC to catalog and select your music.
No skips and it can read very trashed cds. Never been worked on. Sounds pretty good run through a Musical Fidelity X-10v3 tube buffer.Tom
I have had a Rotel RCD 971 since 1999 with no flaws.I have had a Pioneer Elite (DV47Ai) for about three years with no flaws.
I am looking to upgrade the Rotel - I hope I have as much luck in reliability.
for 3 years, not one flaw except won't read picture cd's, unless I dunno what I am doin. which sounds better esp on redbook cd?
The CD player is the most fragile component in a system, given mainly that it's the only one with moving parts! What I suggest you do, especially if you're considering something from outside the US (assumnng you're in the US), is divide its price by 5 (cost of parts and labor to build + profit for builder + shipping to importer + importer's profit + shipping to dealer + dealer's cost to ship to you and his profit) to figure out what the unit actually cost to build. How little can you actually build a CD player for, which won't break? If it costs $500 in parts and labor to build it, it will retail for $2500 in the US. If it uses a good durable transport and other truly good parts, it might cost $1000-1500 to build, in which case it would retail in the US for $5000-$7500. And we're not even talking here about development costs. I am amazed that CDP's retailing for under $2000 last very long at all --$400 for parts and labor?!! But clearly some do.Moral: A CDP is not the place to save money in your system if you're looking for longevity.
Hi Bob,It seems that, on the whole, general parts quality even in expensive models isn't like it used to be in the 80's and 90's..something is definitely amiss here. Some of today's $4K+ players still have problems. Add to that the inexplicable rush from some manufacturers to get new models out so quickly before any real tests are made, resulting in premature problems and failures etc..How are these guys thinking!!:-)
AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Samuel L. Jackson (Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
Dear AP,I cannot disagree with you about the rush to bring out new models, a fact which makes it very hard to obtain parts for models that are more than five minutes old, which makes it even harder for smaller producers to service older models and maintain good customer service.
What I do not agree with is that the parts content was better, what was the parts content in the 1980'sand 1990's players that make you say that??
I don't remember seeing any Black Gates, tantalum resistors, nickel cored digital transformers or any such premium parts in any players from that era, apart possibly from the Sony Esprit series.
Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup
Dear Pete,Sorry for the misunderstanding. When I mentionned 'parts content' I meant the general regular parts used like the optical pick-ups, the caps etc..are now not manufactured to rigid specs and good QC as they used to be in yesteryears..I believe, and from personal experience, that Philips and/or Sony transport mechanisms were much more reliable then and used to be workhorses for many years. Nowadays, these can fail so quickly, have bugs and they are not as robust made as they used to be. Even the 'cheaper' versions used to last long without any hiccups.
A friend of mine still has the Philips based Meridien 206 player and it's still working great, never had a problem and sounds great too.
It seems obvious to me, maybe just a coincidence too, that things have started to go downhill with the introduction of the SACD format and the consequent players. A lot of problems are happening with CD/SACD based players and Universal players in all price ranges.
Best Regards
AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Samuel L. Jackson (Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
"Some of today's $4K+ players still have problems," which makes my point even more forcefully. A good (toploading) transport mechanism, comparably good power supply, high performing capacitors, resisters, etc. are very expensive. And perhaps even more important, a work force that can assemble a complicated machine skillfully?!! How many hours should it take to assemble a good CDP? Three? Six? What do you have to pay semi-skilled assembly people? $30/hour. And they have benefits and the plant has to be paid for or rented and heated...I considered my Naim CDX/XPS a good and durable machine, and that cost $6/7K (I think) nearly a decade ago. The Audience modified Sony 999 also seemed good and strong (though it wasn't around here long enough to tell for sure) and sounded very damn good for around $5K. That was around 2-3 years ago. It will be interesting to see what the new Audio Note one-box players are like when they finally come out. There is one in development that uses the Philips drive and a Dac 2.1 Signature that looks very promising but I'm guessing it will retail in the neighborhood of $8K. As cruel as it can't help but sound to those without lots of money to spend, my educated guess is that $7-8K is what a truly excellent AND durable one-box player will cost for the rest of this decade. That's why I always cringe when somebody comes on here asking about a good, cheap transport, dac, or one-box player. It's a fair question to ask but the answer is, well, cruel. What can I say?
The car metaphor is the right one. You can get basic transportation that won't break for around 75K miles for $14-16K, right? But if you want a virtually guaranteed 150K, you're in the twenties, and not much longer in the low twenties either. Labor and parts, parts and labor. And then a few folks along the chain have to make a living.
I understand that a good player is expensive to build, especially for smaller companies. However, as AP suggests, if you compare what $600 can get you in the 80's or early 90s, and what $1200 can get you now, the quality has just slipped so much in the past decade. Yes, if you are talking $6K products, then I am sure they are still good (they have to be good). But $600 in the early 90s (take the budget Denon) give you a solidly built player, with very well built metal casing, and made in Japan. Nowaday, $1200 give you a flimsy 3kg machine that is made in China. Skillful worker that get paid well? I don't think so.Honestly, 10 years ago I would just buy a machine and assume that it will work for 10 years, if it doesn't, maybe just bad luck. But now, if I get a machine that works for 5 years, I think I am very lucky.
And also, software bug in a CD player was rarely heard of, now you can see it happening everywhere. Even in power amp thermal protection circuit!
Sure, the new players usually sound better than the old ones, and with a lot more features, but I rather have something that works longer.
"Yes, if you are talking $6K products, then I am sure they are still good (they have to be good)."Not necessarily. There's plenty of $6K crap out there. I'm just saying that it seems that you can't make a really good sounding one that's also durable for much less than that.
That's not to say you can't make bad ones for that price too! I would not equate price with quality but I would be suspicious of CDP's that don't cost around that much.
"Sure, the new players usually sound better than the old ones, and with a lot more features, but I rather have something that works longer."Well again, 'the new players' covers a lot of ground. I've had some 'new players' pass through here in the $5-7K range that stank and were already failing, software in particular, as you say.
I can't generalize because I don't keep track of much gear these days. But I do know that the good ones I've heard that also seem durable cost at least that much; and some cost more.
I agree with what you are saying. I just wonder why they can make reliable products 15 years ago at a low cost but not anymore nowaday.
Guessing:1. Attitude of workers and cost of benefits (medical)
2. Cost of materials (where silver & copper are involved especially)
3. Inflation
4. Dollar/Euro/Pound
5. Decline of Civilization
6. ?????
For what it's worth, I still have my Creek CD43MkII that is still working more or less perfectly after 4 years (now using as transport with external DAC). The only problem is a very rare disc that the machine will not read the TOC, but compared to some of the problems I hear about newer machines, this is almost nothing to get excited about. The transport in this machine is totally silent, which is more than you can say for a lot of current CD-ROM or DVD drive based machines, including some very expensive ones. I like the Creek products, since they give you a lot of bang for the buck, but could not comment on how their newer CDPs compare with the older ones. All mechanical devices are bound to fail eventually, but you should expect a consumer CD player to last more than a year or two with ordinary use. There may be something to say about using cheap DVD-type players as transports that you "throw away" when broken and putting your money into a good DAC, especially one that is relatively immune to transport-related jitter and other irregularities.
My cpd from the late 80’s has never been serviced and still works, but can’t say the same for any of it’s replacements. Each generation seems to be better, less expensive, but less durable. Anything using nothing more than computer cd-drive as the transport will have reliability issues imo. Unfortunately, alot of manufactures are forced to use them in consumer grade as well as higher end units. I opted to spend the bigger, long-term money on the DAC side and churn through cheap transports like a disposable lighter.
Believe what your ears say - not hearsay.
I've had the same problem, but I never spend too much money on them. There are 3 common points of failure on all of the CD/DVD players it appears, the laser, the motor, and the drawer. And the way they are built you can't just swap one out and put in a new one, at least not easily.My one success with all this is when my modded Toshiba 3960 died. Since it was already on its way to the trash I decided to open it up and see if anything could be done, after all I had already gone into it. What I did discover is that the drawer mechanism was all gummed up and wouldn't close fully, and the contacts weren't being made. I took it completely apart, cleaned it up, lubed it with bicycle chain teflon lube, and put it back together. And it worked. I've been using it for about a year and a half this way without any more problems.
So if you're already poised to throw it out, instead take it apart and see what you can do. If nothing else spray some WD40 on it, let it dry, then spray some real lube on it. Just make sure to wipe it down after so the lube doesn't get on your disks.
All my one box CD players have been purchased new or demo. Never had one in the shop for anything (quickly knocks on wood) and every one of them was purchased used or demo.Even the very first one I bought in 1991, a Pioneer that was just for yocks in the party room - is still working in a friends system.
Arcam Alpha 8
Arcam Alpha 9
Cary CD 303/100
Cary 303/300
Cal Icon w/Power BossI still have the last one in my office system. Doesn't sound too bad although it's hardly a youngster.
> All my one box CD players have been purchased new or demo <> and every one of them was purchased used or demo. <
How can this be? Please explain.....
Oz
I bought the CD 192T after a lot of auditioning. It is the best-all-round sounding, most troublefree operating digitally filtered CDP i have ever owed. My 10-yr old Marantz 67SE Sig has also never skipped a beat although i did recently replace the RCA jacks.
My Arcam Alpha 8 is about 6 years old, gets a LOT of use, and has never let me down.
Now if I can just hang a better quality used DAC off it....open to suggestions on this.
Cheers, Impoverished
Cd 92 and a cd 92t,have worked perfect,they never skip on any disc you play on them ever.Classic players if there ever was.
Harmonia,I've had constant nightmares for a year and a half with my Denon DVD-5900!!! Supposedly a top of the line model with a defected transport mechanism..!!! and was purchased NEW!!
AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Samuel L. Jackson (Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
I had a Denon 1600. Stopped working just after the warranty period expired. Fortunately, I had the extended warranty. After 2 months in the shop it worked for another 4 months before going faulty again. I threw it out. No more Denons for me.
-----------------------
"War is a complete failure of the human spirit" - Robert Fisk
You could always adopt pc audio and get rid of the cd player all together. If the cd rom drive fails replace it for $50 and 5 minutes work. The convenience and the sound quality could make you forget the cd player umless you want to spend $5K and worry about repair costs, discontinued transports etc.
Do you connect an outboard DAC (using USB?) or just use the sound card? Isn't PC quite noisy (fan, CD ROM noise) etc?
You can connect to a Dac using USB or wireless with the Squeezebox. This way you can have the pc in a different room. I use the USB wired Scott Nixon Dac from my Mac Mini computer. The Mac is quiet enough for me and it works well. I used M-Audio's Audiophile Dac previously and for $120 I was very pleased with that as well. The biggest job is ripping the cds to a hard drive but after that it's very convenient. It's one option to avoid any future repair bills. I had a PS Audio Lambda transport and Phillips stopped making the transport. This way you avoid that hassle in the future and make your hd your new transport.
without meaning to be facetious, i have had a denon 1520 since 1987. been to the shop once or twice for general cleaning. i run it through a heavily modded benchmark dac1.. i keep wanting to get something newer, but but but, i fear that the cosmos will laugh at me. ever think of looking for an 'older' cdp as a transport w/ dac?
I tried that and lost everything on my MAC and then my extenal HD within two weeks-before i could copy my "back up". it will take me a lifetime to get this stuff back, if that
Very bad luck I would think, I've played my main hd for over a year 8 hours a day without a failure. I also have my library backed up 4 times, 2 offline not even in the same location. It is a network admin. thing I guess My hd are from work and have at least a 5 year warranty. Next move is to solid state hd when available.
The current state of one box cd players is really a big shame! There are some isolated failure incidents but it seems a LOT of the post SACD era players have endless QC problems, premature failures and malfunctions as well as very poor customer support. Add to that, the major manufacturers of transport mechanisms are not producing good reliable transports anymore like they used to do in pre SACD era players.If you want a good reliable one box player for the long haul, then think about an Accuphase player. They are still made in Japan, their QC is excellent, they sound terrific and customer support is exemplary.
AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Samuel L. Jackson (Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
I would love to own an Accuphase, but they are too expensive, or do they make budget products as well? (~$1000)
Yes, they are a bit expensive but not too expensive if you buy them used. Check on Agon you will find some nice deals there on used and new Accuphase players. You could also private message inmate 'George Mann', AA's resident Accuphase guru for more detailed advice etc..I've seen a DP-55 sell for around $1200 used. Most Accuphase models also have digital inputs & outputs so you can use them as transports
or use their internal DACS with an outboard DvD player for even better sound etc..Another good and 'cheaper' option is to look for used Sony ES players. Most models before the SCD-1 or SCD-777 are generally good sounding, built like a tank and reliable too. Models like the CDP-x779ES, 707ES, 77ES upto the CDP-XA7ES are really good machines.
Hope this helps.:)
AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Samuel L. Jackson (Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
And I guess the worst one are budget ones ($300-400) ones that it costs you $50 to get it checked and may be another $100 to fix. And now you wonder whether you should buy a new one ...
I understand your concerns- once went through 3 different versions of the same machine in one year ( Micromega ). Perhaps choosing a CD player made by a large ( by hifi standards ) company with lots of experience and it's own very capable engineering staff limits the change of a bad machine. I've never read anything negative ( reliability wise) about Arcam and their CD players seem to be almost universally praised by their owners etc. An Arcam CD 73 ( or more expensive model if it suits your budget) would seem like a good choice - I own an Arcam CD 72T.
Thanks for your advice. What is there lower cost model? (anything under $400)? Are they made in China or in UK?
But you can get a used one for under $400. Keep your eye on Audiogon. I've only had one CDP fail, and that was after 10 years. The transport went out.The advantage of a used unit is that it has proven itself. An engineer friend of mine says that if a unit is going to fail, they usually fail sooner than later.
Think decent DAC and turn over cheap players.
Grits: the other white starch!
thx
.
Grits: the other white starch!
Check up on recent Toyota reliability ratings and problems, it may wuprise you. We had a 2001 RaV4 that had more problems than any car I have ever owned, it even stranded my wife due to an ignition failure.Cheers
Doesn't seem to matter if they are VW's or Lexus' they all seem to have problems sooner or later and some become junk soon than later. Fact of life, CDP's have moving parts. Moving parts wear out and stop running. All moving parts. Fundamentally you won't get more than you pay for so buy the ones which have the best moving parts and warranty.
b/c mine spends more time in the shop! What a POS...more problems than any car we’ve ever owned.
Believe what your ears say - not hearsay.
Sure. No car can be safer than the one in the garage rather than on the road...:-)Another Volvo owner (no problems whatsoever, though).
48hp yielding 78mpg on the city cycle this baby seats four goes 136 mph and never needs an oil change. Watch for the new Wadia Wad on sale through the Lirpa dealership network near you.
Grits: the other white starch!
I know the feeling. I had a Sony ES CD player that was crap, went up to the Shandling SACD player which has incredible sound, when its not in the shop.
A friend of mine's Shanling SACD player has just stopped working. It has been used very lightly over the past 15 months and the laser has just died ! A Sony laser assembly.AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Samuel L. Jackson (Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
A new wife!"honey, get anything you want, but just make sure it works."
Now THAT's a keeper!
"Music is God's gift to man, the only art of Heaven given to earth, the only art of earth we take to Heaven."
-Walter Savage Landor
That's true, I will keep this one : )
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