|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
142.179.54.59
I was just wondering, how does one listen for phase errors?
On my new DAC (Wadia) I can invert the phase on the fly.I have tried playing around with it. I find that it just makes things sound a little more forward or laid back depending on the album. It's not a huge difference, but its noticeable.
So, if something sounds a little more distant, would it be recorded out of phase?
Also what percentage of discs are recorded out of phase? 50%? 25% 10%? 5%?
Follow Ups:
Instead of playing devil's advocate, I adopted the ideas in this article by Doug Blackburn regarding Signal Polarity and altering it in the digital domain. I think the Wadia gear does this and the article puts forth the idea that it makes little difference...instead it argues that wire directionality is the "key".What I've found is that I'm mostly happy with almost all recordings once the correct orientation (directionality) of speaker, interconnect and digital connect is sorted (think direction of electrons coming from the live side of the connection)...trust your gut. To ease the sorting out...listen to one speaker through one channel to sort out the one your gut prefers on well known recordings. Once establish...attach the other channel in the same physical fashion.
P.S. The notion of absolute does have some bearing but the problem is that you cannot alter it and absolute polarity independently on most system unless you can have a DAC with "digital signal inversion".
P.P.S You may need to read Doug's article around your head several times over the next few weeks to understand the point he is trying to get across...most people miss the fine distinction.
I know Doug and respect the man, but I've used digital polarity switches for some time, although I'm appalled that many of the newer machines do not have them. For me polarity is almost instantly audible, though for most it is a relatively minor annoyance. I can not see spending more than $1K per component and not having the sound be that much closer to reality by a simple issue of observing positive and negatives.
I can hear phasing issues and it irritates me to no end. Even with my current universal player, none of which have any polarity switches, I still find myself flipping speaker wires. Actually what really irritates me is that of the few SACD discs I have, the SACD layer is phase correct and the CD redbook layer is inverted. Maybe Sony is trying to 'juice' the sound of it's format?
Stu,
I'm not sure how your CD output and SACD output are physically arranged (i.e. do they have separate physical RCA jacks) but it is possible that when the CD layer is used that it goes through an additional gain stage with a critical amount "wire" that influences/dominates the overall "directionality" using the CD layer. Just something to think about
I checked the layout. Digital demodulator (is that what the right term is?) to DAC chips on mother board. There is no additional analog stage. Whatever's being done has been done in the digital domain. This was true with the MF TriVista and the Marantz DV 8400 and the 9500, me to believe that it is a Sony issue, as Sony makes the SACD chips.
Blackburn is right, phase inversion in the analog domain raises more problem, with often unpredicatble results.Also, most of the time the "awkardness" one hears from track to track is due to unstable optical disc transports. All you need to do is open/close disc tray and play the track again. Use direct access to cue up the track instead of skipping forward. All the sound quality variations that can come from unstable optical disc transports are recorded here, and verified by Ole in the link below. The Wadias are actually very susceptible to this problem than many other types of transports.
I have been able to upgrade to a more transparent pre-amp without a phase switch built-in and enjoying music all the more for it. (Absolute phase is still audible of course in this current system, with specially created materials dedicated for this type of test).
More forward is probably "correct" phase and laid back is probably "incorrect". I put those words in quotes because on multitracked recordings (almost all), the separate instrument or vocal tracks may be out of phase relative to one another, so the 'correct' phase for such recordings is problematic. As Abe points out, it's a coin toss whether a given CD is in correct phase or not.
Way back in the day, 20 years ago, when "absolute phase" first became a common topic of discussion among 'philes, my friends and I spent considerable time experimenting, even kludging together speaker level switch boxes so we could A/B back and forth on the fly. We came to the following conclusions:1) Absolute phase IS audible,
2) There's no consistency as to phase from one record by the same label or artist to the next,
3) There's often no consistency as to phase between individual cuts on the same record, or even individual tracks within the same cut,
and finally,
4) Who cares? We concluded that the differences are slight and not musically meaningful.
I became interested in this phase correctness subject through reading this thread. First I need some clarification. I saw people taking about the image will be more forward when phase correction is made to recordings made in the wrong phase. My question is what about you apply phase correction to recordings already made in correct phasing - does the whole image become diffused? The problem in my experience (using my Spectral DMC-20 that has a phase switch) is I could hear better, more sharp-focused image when I (supposedly) corrected the phase incorrect recording, but I could not hear any degradation or diffusion when I switch phase on correct recording. This does not make any sense to me. How can phase correction work only in one way (to improve) and not the other? I have a feeling that this is psycho acoustic. Please enlighten me.
Twenty years ago I may have agreed with you, but today with precision resistors, high tolerance capacitors, zero feedback designs, and such phase is much more audible. Still I have to agree with your points 1, 2, and 3 absolutely.
With my original Buddy Holly recordings there is a stunning difference in the presentation of his voice when the polarity is inverted: flat and lifeless. Corrected, the music has tremendous vitality and presence. The difference would be akin to changing components.
There are a few constants: every Columbia recording I have has been inverted, so has every DDG and Philips in the stereo era from the 70's on. With Simon and Garfunkle's early recordings inverted, you can actually follow Garfunkle's lyrics intelligibly.
Of course YMMV.....Some people seem to be more sensitive to phase than others. Could never figure that one out.
I have a phase inversion switch on front panel of my pre-amp. Usually if something sounds goofy in the soundstage image or if drums sound hollow or unnatural, or if voices sound tinny or thin, it's phase inversion. I have no trouble hearing it on my CLS 2z's.It should be just as easy on any speaker, as long as your system is phase coherent.
correct phase usually gives me pinpoint imaging. Out of phase, recordings have a large soundstage, but things are much more blurred, like a soft focus lens effect.
Problems with hearing absolute polarity occur primarily because many if not most speakers have phase issues in their design and implementation. Take a careful look at Stereophile's test reports. Even expensive systems like the Wilson Watt have drivers which are inverted to each other. Any design like that will negate the effects of switching polarity as some aspects will become better and other will become worse.
If your speakers are phase and time coherent, the difference can be amazing. AS usual YMMV.............
..
actually make it difficult to hear phase. Phase is easier to hear with a box enclosure since the back wave is usually not audible ( inside the box). With Maggies, the sound stage will either be in front or behind the speaker since the speakers are dipole. You can discerna difference in the sharpness of the attacks though. Consonants are crisper, horns have more of that'tongued' attack when the phase is correct.Stu
PS If you can hear phase differences using Maggies, your hearing is pretty good.
Thanks,Funny you say I have good hearing though. My wife might say otherwise... LOL.
As far as sound is concerned, I have pretty good hearing but not the best.When I say things sound more forward and laid back, it could be the soundstage moving slightly with the phase. When ifs forward there is slightly more focus.
Do also have acoustic panel behind my speakers which would probably help me hear any differences.
You can see a pic of my room here:
http://www.nickway.com/My_Room.jpg
The forward sounding placement is the correct phase. If you get more sensitive to phase then you'll soon realize that many recordings have mixed phase (argghhhhh!). One example is the Holly Cole trio 'Don't Smoke in Bed' CD. TAS went and claimed the Canadian version was superior so I went out and got it only to realize the Canadian version was inverted in relation to the US version. The trio itself is recorded in mixed phases. The piano is inverted to the voice and bass, or vice versa depending on which release you have.Stu
PS Oh Yeah in regards to your wife, I believe that's called selective hearing, but then we won't tell her that, won't we?
Given that it's a crap shoot as to whether a particular CD was created in the correct phase, why worry about your system having the right phase?
It's not really thay big of deal. As I have been listening to my discs as is until now.
I was just wondering what sort of benifits I could expect by correcting the phase.In the end its all about the music anyways. If it sounds good thats what matters.
I"m just as curious about this subject as you are. I have a phase switch on my preamp because my Accuphase CDP is 'out of phase' but I rarely bother to switch the preamp and I can't really hear much difference when I do.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: