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In Reply to: Without SACD you are not playing in the top echelon. Period end of story. posted by Norman Tracy on May 13, 2005 at 16:10:24:
That was an awesome post, I was thinking ...finally, a reply from somebody who gets it. And I was in total agreement as you made a case for not compromising on anything less than SOTA CD and SACD playback.But then I got to the punchline: a universal player? You're kidding, right? Even the Esoteric, which is probably the best sounding stock universal player, will need mods to compete with SOTA CD and SACD sources. The Marantz and Linn are in another (lower) league - barely acceptable for a system like mine, but entirely out of place in a system like yellowwwwducky's.
I know that if I had yellowwwwducky's amp and speakers and $25k to spend on a front end, I wouldn't settle for anything less than the best digital reproduction, period. A stock universal player in his system would be like serving Swanson Hungry Man at an offcial state dinner.
Follow Ups:
Dave wrote:“That was an awesome post, I was thinking ...finally, a reply from somebody who gets it. And I was in total agreement as you made a case for not compromising on anything less than SOTA CD and SACD playback.”
Thank you for the kind words. I guess the post needed a bit more editing and specific declarations as my point was not so much “not compromising on anything less than SOTA” as a vote against the trend to view post-CD/LP high resolution formats as something that flew out of Pandora’s box to be wished out of existence.
Dave continues:
“But then I got to the punch line: a universal player? You're kidding, right? Even the Esoteric, which is probably the best sounding stock universal player, will need mods to compete with SOTA CD and SACD sources. The Marantz and Linn are in another (lower) league - barely acceptable for a system like mine, but entirely out of place in a system like yellowwwwducky's.“Ok, I’m busted. Guilty as charged of stepping onto the slippery slope of making specific recommendations. The certainty of Dave’s opinions leads me to guess he has much more direct experience with the players in question so I will refrain from making recommendations in favor of pointing out candidates like the Ayre C-5 Universal player seen above. One of the reasons I went into that discussion of licensing is that single issue sharply limits the number of candidates. That is too bad as it limits those working on answering the questions of what it really takes to achieve great CD/SACD playback. I believe the jury is still out on the question of if a universal player can be built which achieves the top rank. Even if no one has yet done it that does not mean the next one down the pike may not succeed. From my engineer’s point of view I can see no reason it cannot be done. From my audiophile’s point of view I wonder if with the limited number of companies allowed to work on the problem if one will rise to the challenge, throw enough resources at it, and not screw up that one vital detail!
Concluding Dave wrote:
“I know that if I had yellowwwwducky's amp and speakers and $25k to spend on a front end, I wouldn't settle for anything less than the best digital reproduction, period. A stock universal player in his system would be like serving Swanson Hungry Man at an official state dinner.”Of course a big part of the fun of treating ourselves to these toys is we inject into the selection process our unique blend of requirements. It seems styling is high on yellowwwwducky's list. Not a bit surprising given the home I would expect a rig with this price tag to live and that his Levinson No 39 has some of the best industrial design in all of high end audio. And what’s the fun if it’s so ugly you have to hide it in a closet?!? Now yellowwwwducky stated the dCS styling does not make the cut. Among “the best digital reproduction, period” candidates which include SACD capability that leaves the Meitner. Should it’s styling be found wanting I will suggest one possibility for yellowwwwducky is to keep a bunch of that $25k in the market growing while ‘settling’ for a top rank $4k to $8k player from the likes of Accuphase, Ayre, Marantz, Linn, Denon, or Esoteric. Opinions vary as to the suitability of these in yellowwwwducky's system. And of course yellowwwwducky has some decisions to make as to complexity, styling, and when to jump in whole hog vs. waiting for a technology to mature.
happy listening
Norman Tracy
I agree....except for the Denon or Marantz part....a better reccomendation substitution would be the Onkyo sp 1000 as it even sounds better than the 5910.
Sorry Norman, I was probably too harsh in criticizing your suggestions. I haven't heard the Classe, but I have heard the others you mentioned in your original post.I compared the Linn Unidisk 1.1 to my current modified SACD player and thought it fell short in most areas. Considering what it is - a compact, lightweight universal machine with a switching power supply, it sounds good. But I don't think it competes favorably with dedicated CD and SACD machines in the $3k range and it's grossly overpriced. It is a stylish machine though, so the suggestion certainly fits yellowwwwducky's concern for asthetics. I've owned a few Marantz units, including the DV-8400 universal which is similar in character to the Linn but not quite as good. The SA-14 (not a universal) is probably very close to Linn but warmer. I have not heard their current top of the line, the SA-11S1 or the DV-9500 (replacement for the DV-8400). A friend has the Esoteric DV-50 and it's clearly a step above the other DVD-based players I've had: Marantz DV-8400, Denon 5900, Sony 999ES, Philips SACD 1000 (in stock form anyway). But I don't think it reaches the level of many modified SACD players or high end CD rigs.
Like you, I don't think there are any fundamental reasons why a truly high end universal player cannot be built. However, I don't think many manufacturers perceive a market for it. The Ayre C-5 is probably the first real effort towards an all-out, no compromise universal player. Ayre is testing the waters, and if demand is for the C-5 is strong enough, maybe other manufacturers will follow.
Dave
To each his/her own.> > I've owned a few Marantz units, including the DV-8400 universal which is similar in character to the Linn but not quite as good. The SA-14 (not a universal) is probably very close to Linn but warmer. < <
I had a 8400 in my system for a few weeks and it is NOT similar to any decent Linn by any means. Noise floor is high, transparency low, extension is minimal, they lack dynamic capability and sound compressed in comparison. It was easily blown away by my resident player.
I have heard the SA-14 which is considerably better than the 8400 directly against a few good dedicated cdps - and although it is a half decent cdp - it did not compare well to dedicated players either. Compared directly to a Sim Nova - it was no contest. I thought the SA14 to be a decent SACD player, but certainly not in the Linn class.
I have heard many dedicated cd players, the linn unidisk 1.1 compares favorably to many to my ears.
I really like the Simaudio Nova. If I could live without SACD, I would own a Nova LE right now - that's how much I like it. But my dealer had both the Nova and Unidisk 1.1 in the same system and I thought the Nova was clearly better on Redbook.The Marantz DV-8400 is not as good as the Unidisk, I agree with that. But I found both to share some similar characteristics, with the most obvious differences being that the Linn had better resolution & transparency and a wider soundstage. Also, the Marantz was missing some low bass. I can't really say much about the dynamics except that the Nova sounded faster and more dynamic than the Unidisk, and that every piece of Marantz gear I've tried lacks dynamics. I did think that both the DV-8400 and Unidisk were overly smooth, too laid back, and shared a somewhat lightweight presentation.
I know you love your Ikemi. Maybe we just have different preferences. I haven't heard the Ikemi, but I suspect part of it is that the Ikemi is a better Redbook player than the Unidisk.
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