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In Reply to: I'd like to see EVERY reviewer do part of what Art did. posted by Rick W on February 25, 2007 at 09:04:15:
Dear Rick,I am not accusing you of bad faith, but, can't you see the Catch-22 or "gotcha" potential in this? "We piped and you would not dance, we wailed and you would not mourn!"
I have returned every bit of all cables with three exceptions. Apogee Digital sent me some raw experimental cable, I paid to have it terminated, they told me to keep it. DH Labs told me to keep some under-$100 retail digital as a reference, and Stereovox told me to keep some under-$50 digital cable as a reference. I returned even the cheapest Nordost stuff-ask Joe Reynolds. All the CPCC power stuff went back. What I have for speaker cables and interconnects is stuff I bought, in some cases at retail.
Preparatory to moving and downsizing radically, I sold or gave away a lot of stereo equipment that had been in boxes forever, I was not going to listen to it again, why pay to store it? The only thing I stored was a Nak 680ZX cassette deck, too cool to sell for $25 or put out with the recycling.
So now, the criticism is not that I can build a suspension bridge with loaner cables, or that I can outfit the Playboy Mansion with stuff on "permaloan" (I am told one European mfr was told my a writer that they should not expect their spiffy new subwoofers back anytime soon), the criticism would be that John Marks does not have a longterm reference system, and therefore his judgments are inherently suspect.
Gotcha!
Again, I am not implying you would act this way, but... .
Cordially,
Follow Ups:
"I have returned every bit of all cables with three exceptions. Apogee Digital sent me some raw experimental cable, I paid to have it terminated, they told me to keep it. DH Labs told me to keep some under-$100 retail digital as a reference, and Stereovox told me to keep some under-$50 digital cable as a reference. I returned even the cheapest Nordost stuff-ask Joe Reynolds. All the CPCC power stuff went back. What I have for speaker cables and interconnects is stuff I bought, in some cases at retail."Great. But let's be perfectly clear that this says absolutely nothing about the usage of loaner cables (just sticking with the category in question). Let's take Art's disclosure as an example.
In the article he tells us he returned Nordost Valhalla speaker cables last year after a lengthy stay in his system. In the October, 2006 review of the Nordost Heimdall he mentions the Valhalla being in his system for some number of years (3 I believe), and the Heimdall stuff is still currently in his system on loan. So since around 2003 he has had the usage of some very pricey Nordost cable in his system.
Permaloan seems a fit description. However is there a problem with permaloan?... more on this below.
"Preparatory to moving and downsizing radically, I sold or gave away a lot of stereo equipment that had been in boxes forever, I was not going to listen to it again, why pay to store it? The only thing I stored was a Nak 680ZX cassette deck, too cool to sell for $25 or put out with the recycling."
I don't see that what people, you or anyone else, do with their personal property is of much interest. However if you sold stuff that wasn't yours then that would be the end of your SF reviewing career according to John Atkinson's entirely non-ambiguous statement on this topic (in a thread below).
"So now, the criticism is not that I can build a suspension bridge with loaner cables, or that I can outfit the Playboy Mansion with stuff on "permaloan" (I am told one European mfr was told my a writer that they should not expect their spiffy new subwoofers back anytime soon), the criticism would be that John Marks does not have a longterm reference system, and therefore his judgments are inherently suspect."
There is an assumption here that the publication does not have the means to maintain a stock of "reference" items. Let's just assume that is the case, and further let's assume the utility of "permaloan" items to allow for "longterm reference system"(s).
OK, fine, is there a problem? Well it ain't perfect that's self-evident but with disclosure of loaner items the situation is considerably less flawed, i.e. it is then up to the informed reader to make his own judgements (about possible bias, etc.)
Can this be reasonably denied?
I have no interest in criticising a reviewer's system. You do have something you'd call your own system (that you paid for), don't you? Well, I'd just like to know what it is. In your case it'd be interesting to hear about what you chose to keep after downsizing.I'm also not interested in giving anybody a hard time regarding keeping "loaners" or gifts. But listing "long-term loans" and gifts under one big associated equipment list is misleading. Could they afford the loaner/gift -- even with insider discount -- and would they choose something else if they had to spend their own money?
In the real world, whether they have $1,500 or $15,000 to spend, cost/performance ratio is a crucial issue for the majority of your readers. Without distinguishing items *bought* from "loaners" and gifts in associated components lists the reader has no way to know what cost/performance judgements the reviewer has made. How could anyone know if the "loaner" or gift would be a reviewer's first choice if they had to actually pay for it?
If I can get 96 + % out of a 2 K $ amp versus an 8 K $ amp and have the other 6 Gs to upgrade elsewhere, for example to get an extra 5 % in the total sound somehow, I'd give that suggestion some thought. Since most, if not all of us readers are in the 10 - 30 K buck stereo grouping, this prioritization would make some sense. Heck, do enough people actually buy those 30 - 80 K amps to even cover the cost of design. Forget trickle down, the el biggie amps are but the components of several amps operating in parallel or bridged.
Hi-I sold, gave away, or threw out just about everything of mine as part of a decks-clearing exercise. All of it I legally and rightfully owned. The stuff I owned had so long ago been eclipsed by review loaners, there was not much point in hanging on to stuff that had not been out of boxes in years.
The longest loan I ever had was for a continuing series in TAS called "A Stereo for Mr. Stevens," which went about two years, and I had Shahinian Obelisks for about 18 months.
I had the Sound Devices 722 hard disk recorder for about 6 months, and felt bad at having had it so long and not being able to buy it.
All the loaner stuff I have here now is less than 60 days old.
And I needed some XLR to XLR cables, so I went to Guitar Center and paid retail.
However, my friend Bob Saglio has a years-old pair of ASA Babys that I borrowed from him after the ESP Concert Grands went back, and I do consider those if not a "reference" in the way many people think of the term, certainly a benchmark for value for money.
And, if the occasion arose when I wanted to hear the Magnum Dynalab receiver again, I am confident they would oblige me.
In the past week, I attended a rehearsal of the St. Cecilia Choir at Thomas More College, and recorded a 1912/1955/2006 Austin organ using a microphone that was new to me. I think that that adds more value to my writing than having two dozen pairs of cables lying around.
After I get back on track financially, I will buy some stuff, and let people know what it is. But honestly, at this point in my life, were I to win the lottery tomorrow, I'd more likely buy a domestic, house, or chamber organ (4-7 ranks) or a harpsichord, and use the leisure to take lessons and practice, than go crazy with a monster stereo. To paraphrase Clark Johnsen, the more you spend, the more there is to go wrong.
Later,
"And I needed some XLR to XLR cables, so I went to Guitar Center and paid retail."
Hi-My choices were something that looked like a house brand at reasonable money, Monster Cable at a modest premium, Planet Wires at a premium and Mogami at a lot more than one would pay from Markertek. So, largely comparing the XLR connectors, I chose Monster Cable as the best price/looks ratio. Had I not been on a budget I would have gone for Planet Wires. Or rather had I not needed the cables the next day, I would have ordered from Markertek.
I had never used the Pearl TL-44 mic before, so I have no idea of what if anything the balanced cable added or subtracted.
What would a 15-foot pair of Stereovox interconnects cost, I wonder? $10,000? Doubtless a diminishing return!
Later,
Hi John,You may be delighted to know that our Studio line of interconnects offer better value for money than the $10,000 fantasy-pair from your example. A "mere" $1,250.00 retail would buy a 4.5m pair of our Colibri XLR interconnects terminated with Xhadow XLRs.
Should you care to borrow a pair to find out if they work well, we would be happy to lend them.
Chris
P.S. Reference BAL-600 interconnects would only set you back $5,000.00 ... ;-)
%22In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.%22 - Yogi Berra
But I hope you keep writing your columns anyway. Yes, there sure are many other things more important to spend money on -- if you have it to spend -- but I'll be interested to read what hifi products you end up getting later on. Meantime, I hope you do start (or re-start) playing organ. Listening to a good system is certainly enjoyable, but *making* music beats the hell outta hifi.
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