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In Reply to: Unlike other components... posted by mkuller on February 21, 2007 at 10:15:51:
>...manufacturers usually do not reuse cables or want them back.
Used amps, preamps, speakers and the like are returned and become demos for the manufacturer to use at shows or for dealers to use in their stores.So what?
>Cable manufacturers are usually very generous about sending their products (except for the stratospherically priced models) to reviewers.
So what?
>There have been instances I can recall where a cable manufacturer offered to provide his cables to any of the magazine's reviewers to cable their complete systems - as a method of promoting new cables.
Clearly, but then a respectable publication will avoid being such a direct participant in the implementation of the manufacturers's marketing goals!
>In other instances, a speaker manufacturer may request a cable maker send his cables to the reviewer for use with his speakers.
So what?
>At TAS, we would sometimes exchange cables with other reviewers just to hear what else was out there.
Great practice, something that can be done just as easily with owned cables as with loaners; well, the later does involve the risk of the cable being disposed of in a manner that may cause more than just financial loss problems for the loaner!
---
Again, I see no fundamental reason for special treatment of cables.
Your post merely reinforces in my mind the need for serious reflection upon current practices re: cables, who knows perhaps the sorry tale related below could well have been avoided were the product category treated just like the others?
Follow Ups:
...CDs?The reviewers all get them and sometimes use and mention them in their reviews.
Should these be returned?
What about accessories?
Where do you draw the ethical line?
Seems like with you it's either black or white.
acknowledge it and write a thank you note to the giver. Also acknowledge the source such as if his/her company actually paid for it.
With anything on loan simply mail or ship the item back when you are done. If you cannot or do not want to pay for it, expense it.
Why do you presume this isn't done? Again, you think the worst.
nt
State that the cd/accessory was a free gift from so&so. It would also be honest and helpful to state whether or not the reviewer likes it so much that they'd spend their own $$ it were it not a gift.
nt
I consider cables to be components , no different than amplifiers, CD Players, etc. Don't you?As to whether they should be returned I've already said enough... people are starting to complain don't ya' know?
...maybe that's where you went wrong.
Cables *are* components, in my not-so-humble view....especially when many hand-fabricated designs can cost thousands of dollars and affect system performance so greatly.
...power conditioners, power cords, room treatments, etc. which can all be very expensive?
no matter what the value.
You cannot steal abandoned property. The orignal quoted paragraph from a Fermer reveiw is the discription of abandoned property. It cannot be "stolen". When a manufacturer sends cables for whatever reason and fails to take them back, at some point they become abandoned and are the no longer the manufacturer's property. Legally, abandoned property can be sold.
I think you should return what is not yours without being asked to.
Not doing so is stealing.
Being a gear-head I always had a lot of tools, many of them Special Service Tools purchased from car manufacturers at great expense. My "friends" would borrow my tools and then never return them. It pissed me off that I had to "hunt" for them weeks later.
Had I not gone to retrieve them, would the tools then have become the property of my friends?
Maybe the point is moot because half of the time I did not get them back because they had become "lost".
After a few years of that I no longer lent out tools. Then I became the bad guy.
I think you should return what is not yours without being asked to.And usually, that is done. But what if the manufacturer says...."that's o.k....hang on to them." There are a myriad number of reasons a manufacturer will do this, and you will require mind-reading capabilities to discern those reasons. Anything other than that, you are speculating, and reaching, as are some of the other posters.
Not doing so is stealing.
Absolutely not. What are you all of a sudden....the morality police? Again, you do NOT know all the circumstances, and you were NOT party to the transactions, be they reviews or long-term loans. There is no question that these affairs should have open disclosure (such as listing gear or cabling as long-term loans), but for you and anyone else to presume a lack of ethics and/or condemn others' actions without knowing all the details is equally irresponsible.
when a loaned out cable does not "come back" on time.
Go ahead and tell me....you have demonstrated a poor ability to read minds, but try anyway.
Don't forget, reviewers get sent many cables and don't want the out of pocket expense of shipping to return the cables. According to JA, manufacturers pay for the shipping both ways. Why should reviewers get stuck with the expense. If it isn't worth the money or cable companies to pay return shipping why should it be worth it to the reviewer.Maybe, cable companies should clearly state that the cables will be property of the magazine after they are reviewed.
In my experience, many reviews are arranged directly between the reviewer and the manufacturer/distributor, with approval of the magazine editor, of course. And usually (again in my experience) the reviewer gets reimbursed by the manufacturer/distributor for any shipping costs post-review.
Power cords are cables, so they are components, as well as power conditioners. Both directly interact with the power supplies of active gear.I would consider room treatments ancillary to the system, but wholly part of the room acoustic.
I am going to disagree with you on this one. The audio field needs two different terms to describe on the one hand devices which directly, positively, effect the music signal and on the other, those which can only have a negative effect.Traditionally, devices positively effecting the music signal have been considered a "component." Accessories being all else. Power cords, cables and rooms can only have a negative effect on the signal. Improvement only comes from reducing the deleterious effects of the wire, the room.
Insisting that accessories be called components is unnecessary. Unnecessary unless you are an accessory manufacturer seeking to elevate the importance of your product. They have been mighty successful in that regard. They seem to have convinced you ;)
First, in the case of AC cords, the "signal" properly speaking does not pass through them.Second, this easy rebuttal: Some (many?) cables reduce/remove RFI/EMI -- which would have a *salubrious* effect on "the signal".
Third, if you really want to discuss negative effects, look to the designs that virtually require such ameliorations in order to sound good.
First, a cable is not a power cord, but that is so obvious . . ..Second. Cables add RFI/EMI, that is not beneficial. And sheilding adds an additional set of problems to go along with skin effects and dielectics.
Third, ?.
... shouldn't they be considered components? I'm only half kidding.
....when he spoke to the over-committed sheriff in First Blood:"Let it go...."
We all get your point. Repeatedly. But you have gotten beyond tedious. John Atkinson and David Robinson, to name just two of the reviewer/publishers on this forum, are among the most fair-minded and professional people in all of audio. Their magazine policies have been stated and stated repeatedly, and they have both slapped the wrists and fired offending reviewers when necessary....the record was made public long ago.
What you need to do, "no guru, no method, no teacher", is pony up the money and start your own magazine. Do it your way. Be happy. Otherwise, try and live with the imperfections that you see in the audio mags. After all, the price of admission is rather low, ain't it? Or, don't subscribe at all....your choice entirely.
Again, I see no fundamental reason for special treatment of cables.
Obviously the cable manufacturers feel differently. It ain't your call.
never criticize their answers or offer alternatives? You're certainly right that some "discussions" go on too long, and some criticisms are unwarranted and/or outright nonsense. But not all the answers/statements/policy choices from editors/reviewers are Solomonesque either.Yes, the price of admission is very low (for S'phile), and I for one think I'm getting a more than fair amount of entertainment and info for my $$. But I thought at least part of the reason for the establishment of this forum was to voice both praise and criticism as well as ask questions.
Ok, you have a right to get bugged at any post and say so. But to eliminate criticism of mags/editors/reviews due to "It ain't your call" would IMO result in a Critics forum that's boring as hell and also eliminate a number of reasonable complaints and suggestions coming from civilian inmates.
But I thought at least part of the reason for the establishment of this forum was to voice both praise and criticism as well as ask questions.That's the point of the forum, of course, and I have no problem with that whatsoever.
Ok, you have a right to get bugged at any post and say so.
And I did, just like anyone else has the right to do.
But to eliminate criticism of mags/editors/reviews due to "It ain't your call" would IMO result in a Critics forum that's boring as hell and also eliminate a number of reasonable complaints and suggestions coming from civilian inmates.
And where did I suggest eliminating anything? Not in any of my posts. I simply objected to the repeated rant of 'bjh'. I find his posts on the same dissected subject tiresome, and I expressed that sentiment succinctly. He made his point the first time. Flogging the point is tedium. End of story.
All the king's horses and all the king's men are rolling on the floor laughing at that one... one of the horses is neighing something about the price of tea in China but I can't quite make it out.
....the placebo affect you are experiencing.
My first review samples have just arrived from the post. Hey lookie, cables along with a note from the manufacturer, let's see:"Do not return. If you do we'll hunt you down and... you don't wanna know!"
Hmmmmm...?
Seems you're right after all, I've totally exhausted this topic.
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