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38.116.2.4
Thanks for your input to the survey!
Follow Ups:
Silver & Cotton
OCC conductors, I have used mostly Cu which IME/O works better the non-OCC silver. I have some 7N OCC Ag haven't played with much though other then listened to it for directionality briefly, w/o proper break-in sounded surprisingly smooth:)I have never used gold-plated silver but I've seen some people making interconnects with vermeil jewelry wire (???) Not sure how that sounds.
Always looking for better wire. thanks.
Okay! Let's start over and tackle this issue of conductors for audio transmission.What are your opinions on the user of Silver ICs and/or speaker wire?
Is silver better? If so, how?
Why is it better?
Can the difference be measured?How does it reduce/increase skin-effect, capacitance/inductance/resistance values?
Facts: silver is a better conductor than copper. Some dialectrics absorb more than others.Experience (mine): I have preferred a good copper cable over any of the silver or silver plated I tried for years until recently a friend sent me his "pure teflon coated silver wires" for evaluation. These made a noticable improvemnent so that is what I have in my system now.
Possibilities: Not all teflon is pure teflon. Hold a match to what you think is pure teflon, if it melts, you found out the hard way.
Conclusions (mine): Silver with pure teflon is the best for me. It's very hard to find the real deal. I'd rather have copper than silver with most average dialectrics.
Devoid of soapbox and attempts to use logic.Informed by actual experience.
Much appreciated.
There is a lot of hype in the high-end audio market concerning what type of wiring is better (ICs & speaker cables)...the fact of the matter is that no component manufacturer (amplifiers, DACs, sources, etc...) that I know of uses solid silver conductors in their internal wiring inside the amp.It is almost always copper or tinned copper inside your components and speakers.
So, for short runs, it is better to use copper, to maintain "signal purity." Silver is a different element, and unless you have fully silver circuitry and signal paths, always choose copper.
There are tangible benefits to using silver as ICs and wiring, but most manufacturers claim that at lengths of 0.5M and 1M a silver IC will drastically improve your system sound quality. This is simply not true in the majority of cases.
If there are any manufacturers out there who would like to debate this with me, I'm more than open to it.
In addition, think about it practically. Do you really believe that paying $449.99 for a 0.5M pair of Ag interconnects will improve your sound that drastically over a $50 copper pair?
If you try various options, like Monster vs. lamp cord, fancy stuff (say, JPS Superconductor2) vs. Monster, you will quickly find that interconnects make a RADICAL difference in the enjoyability of your music. It's not voodoo or placebo, it's just there, for you to hear.
Little bit more PE, little less soapbox
"So, for short runs, it is better to use copper, to maintain "signal purity." Silver is a different element, and unless you have fully silver circuitry and signal paths, always choose copper."
Huh? Your (non)logic is laughable. OF COURSE silver is a different element than copper. So what? Shouldn't we be trying to use the best we can find within our own definitions of affordability for each component, and 'component' includes pieces of wire?"... but most manufacturers claim that at lengths of 0.5M and 1M a silver IC will drastically improve your system sound quality." Really? You've done a survey of manufacturers' claims? And I think your use of 'drastically' is careless.
"Do you really believe that paying $449.99 for a 0.5M pair of Ag interconnects will improve your sound that drastically over a $50 copper pair?" OF COURSE it won't sound about 10 times better. The concept of diminishing returns applies to high-end-audio stuff same as it applies to 'most everything else. But if that $450 cable sounds TO ME better in MY system and I can afford it, probably I'll buy and use it. Is the next guy stupid to pay $2K for a pair of IC or maybe $11K for a powercord? I'll not say he is, if he compared carefully before buying. But if he bought a $2K IC because his buddy says it sounds great in his buddy's system, I'll call him stupid, and if he paid $2K for a cable while his family goes without shoes, I'll call him worse than stupid.
Each of us has to make his/her own decisions about this stuff, and your blanket nonfacts don't help any of us in that process.
I've carefully compared some silver-conductor cables against other silvers and against copper-conductor cables. Both conductors can be and are used in VERY-good-sounding cable. I've spent lots of money on silver- and copper-conductor cables and have and plan to keep both in my system.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
NOTE: Any views/ideas expressed in this post are opinions only.I would like to move this thread into an inquisitive direction in an attempt to gain more clarity concerning this issue.
Q: "So what? Shouldn't we be trying to use the best we can find within our own definitions of affordability for each component, and 'component' includes pieces of wire?"
A: jeffreybehr, we should definitely be using the best. But I question what "the best" is. In theory, I do not see how a silver conductor IC introduced into an entirely copper signal path can be better than a copper IC. Yes, the capacitance and inductance of a cable can affect the transmission of high and low frequencies, respectively...But I have yet to see a study with any quantifiable evidence proving that using silver as a conductor in an audio IC can yield superior transmission of high or low frequencies or reduce the ubiquitous phenomenon of "skin effect," which, some of my own DIY designs have suffered from.
Q: Really? You've done a survey of manufacturers' claims? And I think your use of 'drastically' is careless.
A: No, I have not conducted a survey, however, again, high end IC manufacturers consistently fail to provide any scientific evidence and use generalizations about their own perceived and inherently biased predications about it sound.
Due to forum rules, I have masked the product and manufacturer name from the following excerpt I found on a very high end audio cable manufacturer's website:
"PRODUCTNAME interconnects are our new reference for SE analog
interconnects. This is absolutely the best sounding interconnect
that we have ever developed. The bare conductors cause less
dispersion (smearing) in the audio signal than fully or partially
insulated conductors, improving both high and low-frequency
resolution, focus and dynamics. PRODUCTNAME interconnects have
bare conductors with air dielectric between them, achieving the
extremely low capacitance per unit length. The low capacitance
of the PRODUCTNAME prevents degradation of dynamic, transient
music passages, while preserving detail. This makes the PRODUCTNAME exceptional for use with passive line-stages and tube
equipment. 99.99% pure Silver conductors in a custom stranded
configuration optimize high and low-frequency response by
minimizing skin-effect and stranding effects. If you are looking for
the ultimate in detail without high-frequency brightness or
sibilance, this interconnect delivers this in spades."This manufacturer description of its very expensive IC makes only one quantifiable claim which relates to capacitance value. There is some factual data about the cable's construction, but the rest of the statements are generalizations.
Here is one particularly weak claim:
"99.99% pure Silver conductors in a custom stranded
configuration optimize high and low-frequency response by
minimizing skin-effect and stranding effects."HOW does using pure silver conductors in a custom stranded configuration optimize high and low-frequency response and minimize skin effect? I want to see a white paper.
Q: "But if that $450 cable sounds TO ME better in MY system and I can afford it..."
A: "TO ME" may imply the placebo effect.
Yes, audio enthusiasts come from different backgrounds with varying budgets and spending habits, however, unless manufacturers can once again provide quantifiable evidence of how their ICs and proprietary designs are better than others (without giving away trade secrets), there will still be enthusiasts purchasing high end cables on the belief of it "sounding better TO THEM."
Q: "Each of us has to make his/her own decisions about this stuff, and your blanket nonfacts don't help any of us in that process."
A: I firmly believe that high-end audio cable manufacturers do exactly that, provide "nonfacts" and generalizations in an attempt to sell a product. Marketing 101 teaches us to make a product look good for the purpose of selling it. However, from an engineering point-of-view, an engineer will look at specifications and factual data before using a component in an electronic circuit/mechanical project. The audio community is surrounded by hype, myth, and personal subjective evaluation and bias. There tends to be widespread misunderstanding and beliefs shrouded in reviews which again provide little to no quantification of claims made. I want to know what makes a silver IC "sound better" than a copper IC, etc...
HowdyYou said "I want to know what makes a silver IC 'sound better' than a copper IC, etc..."
As do we all, but your original post doesn't sound like that, instead it come across like you already knew the answer...
Also we have already given you some counter examples to some of your statements. We just ask that you consider giving your experience instead of pontifications :)
We welcome more people with experience here, but as you can tell we bristle when people show up and claim that they have the 'truth' :)
Ted,I understand.
The problem with reporting a user's experience with a particular item/cable is that it is subjective to the listener.
I think we are dangerously close to violating the "DBT Free Zone" policy!
I'm sorry Ted if I came across as pompous (or as a pontif), but I'm just tired of hearing claims made with little to no evidence. And I'm especially frustrated with manufacturers charging sky-high prices for specialty cables which they expect their customers' to buy on a whim.
There needs to be more definitive articles and explanations in this industry and consumers need to know what is better. We here in the DIY community want to know why things are better so we can improve our own designs for our universal goal of purer sound.
a
HowdyWell my speakers have high purity silver plated copper wire:
and my system does sound a lot better with silver speaker and silver interconnects than copper and this has nothing to do with manufacturer's claims but instead with my listening preferences.
Anyway once again we ask are you a manufacturer or not? (Especially since your email is at http://www.mjraudio.com...)
Those are some serious crossovers! Everything looks very well built. JM Labs/Focal?I have no experience with Focal drivers/loudspeakers/x-overs, but know that they are very highly regarded. In fact, Wilson Audio used modified-Focal bass boomers in their X-1 Grand SLAMMs.
I am, however, tinkering with the idea of designing an all-silver based crossover network & internal speaker hookup wire system using Goertz silver inductors, silver foil or oil caps, and silver solder...any thoughts?
HowdyYep, JMLab (you can check my system listing ( http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/3367.html ) and picture gallery ( http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/view.mpl?UserImages=7184&invite=247664679 ))
I sure like my speakers. I would have never thought I'd spend that kind of money even as recently as three or four years ago :)
I'm not religious about wire, but it's obvious that it makes a difference. Just replacing the point to point wire in an amp or preamp with better quality wire makes a non-trivial difference. I do laugh at what's inside most amps up to the connectors compared to what wire I (and others) use outside the components.
I don't know how much reading of the archives you've done here, but there are a lot of discussions about things like this here and over on the Tweakers' asylum. I'm frankly surprised at the difference that even getting the right gauge makes (both too big and too small) in interconnects, speaker and hookup wire. (You should see the wire from the crossover to the bass driver in my speakers! I seem to remember multiple #6 or #8 wires!)
To your question, my best guess (and it's only a guess since I'm not much of a tweaker or DIYer) is that dead soft silver is best...
Ted: "And my system does sound a lot better with silver speaker and silver interconnects than copper and this has nothing to do with manufacturer's claims but instead with my listening preferences."MJR: You're right of course. Conductor choices depend on the listener's happiness.
Ted: "Anyway once again we ask are you a manufacturer or not?"
MJR: No I am not a manufacturer as my AA account clearly shows that I am a "Audio Enthusiast." In addition, my system profile and posts include no links to any manufacturers nor do I have any affiliation with one.
If the site ever becomes a commercially-oriented site, I will surely upgrade my AA account to a "manufacturer" and be sure not to ever advertise on this site.But thanks Ted for your interest in my registered domain name! :)
Howdy
I'm not trying to give you a harder time than you deserve, but things go better when you don't try to hide things and are up front about your intentions.There have been plenty of inmates here that decided to go into the cables business (and others) but we take a dim view of people trying to have their cake and eat it too.
That website was old and it is not a formal company at all. It has no products, no clients, and no immediate plans. I made it with an intent of starting something a while back with a patent application for a proprietary design which did not materialize as expected. That's why I finally got around to taking whatever I had on there down.Don't worry Ted, I take no offense. In the future I would love to commercialize some of my designs, because I personally think they are good, but I don't really want talk about this and I am prohibited from advertising a company on this website as I have already received a written warning from Jon.
I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it too, just trying to spark interesting conversation here on AA.
HowdyMore than a few of us got a rocky start here, it's how we comport ourselves over time that counts.
...wire (see link below under "components", next to the picture of the crossover), and Audio Note is well known to use silver in their equipment (speakers and electronics). I also do not agree that it has to be all silver or none. In fact, I tried Audio Note RCA jacks in my amps and took them out because I did not like the sound. I switched to the OFC Vampire jacks.I certainly agree that all of these things have different sonic signatures, and it can come down to just the metal used. I found the Oyaide wall outlets sound radically different between the two types I tried, the GX (gold) and XXX (palladium). I certainly think that improvement is in the eye of the beholder, and have also sold off a supposed great silver interconnect and switched to copper. That does not mean that there is not a silver interconnect out there that would be better for my system, though.
I agree with you..."improved" vs. "changed/different"...that is in the ears of the listener.
Steve
BTW; "signal purity"...look at all that crossover stuff, and the rest of the chain...the signal goes through all sorts of substrates...
Steve,Thanks for your response!
I just checked out that company's website: impressive product array.
I tend to be a minimalist and a purist in my system's design, but one company whose products I find particularly impressive is the company which makes those blue colored RCA plugs (whose name starts with "Eich").
They claim the following:
"In addition, most binding posts utilise a heavy plating of gold
over a nickel substrate, and ultimately over brass, to achieve
their bright yellow-gold look. While giving the contact surface
a rich jewel-like appearance, this is often a cause of degraded
sound quality as electrons flow through three dissimilar metals
with differing electrical and conductive properties."This claim makes a lot of sense, logically. I like the idea of a binding post and connector having less metal which can potentially mean less resistance.
I definitely believe that "that is in the ears of the listener" is always highly subjective and inherently biased in many cases. While the listener's satisfaction is the most important, I want to quantify the logic and step into the scientific domain in an attempt to prove what makes one conductor or cable design better than another. Such a study, if conducted with the utmost care, could radicalize DIY thinking and clear up a lot of the hype.
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