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What length should the cables be? Is 5 foot sufficient? 10?What termination is most popular? Would lugs be enough?
Would you be willing to try them all, and fill out a review of some type.
And then, pay for shipment to the next person in the program.
Please respond only if you'd like to do this..
Subject line responses are just fine. length/termination..
Follow Ups:
It's like herding cats in here, really.Hukk
I honestly think many would consider it, but are just lurking to see how it plays out. I can't blame em...after all, most here probably figure me to be an "instrument" kinda guy, so I can see them questioning my intentions.That's no problem. It's not like a train is pulling out of the station..
Oh, btw...Ted gotcha!!...:-)
HowdyBut he did explicitly say "Please respond only if you'd like to do this.." So you are one of those who didn't respect his request :)
I personally believe it would be too much to expect a listener to systematically audition 5 or 6 sets of speaker cables back to back.Reviewing tends to be stressful activity and given the realities of peoples' busy lives a listener may not get more than 2-3 solid hours on a given cable over the period of a week. Many may not then be inclined to launch immediately into another review the following week but procrastinating imposes the anxiety of falling behind. There is a real fear IMHO that many a listener may quickly start to feel resentment for having become involved... this will not yield quality reviews!
I would suggest it better to circulate single cables only. Say a listener gets a set and lets almost a week go by before even hooking up. Not wanting to be seen as holding up the process he gets down to the task and probably gets a few hours in over the following few days. Again imagine the contrasting mind set of our listener motivating himself to listen to a single set vs. another 4-5 sets!
The final costs (pass along shipping) is obviously going to be greater for each participant but we're not talking big bucks, shipping within the US would likely only be a few bucks.
Of course if you were circulating something like a set of Cardas Golden Reference it probably wouldn't be hard to attract listeners willing to pay $20-30 just for the privilege of trying but you're not! I'm not trying to be an ass, I believe it warrants saying so that those opting in give a little thought to what they're jumping into.
For my part I'd be willing to receive one cable at a time, not multiple sets; however being in Canada likely makes me a poor participant due to the increased shipping costs and delays (I only just yeaterday received the set you send to me!)
My intent is LEISURE ..It is not about forced choice, nor time constraints. A week, two, three..who knows..I would think a consensus could be reached for a reasonable time frame.. I would think that if the changes were very obvious, a day would suffice..for more subtle, one week may not be even close..I make the prediction that guage is gonna be fast, inductance in the middle, cable Z and dielectric coefficient are probably slow and steady type evals..
If there is a significant difference which is audible, 5 cable sets affords the possibility of bracketing an optimum. One cable set doesn't.
bjh: ""
I'm not trying to be an ass, I believe it warrants saying so that those opting in give a little thought to what they're jumping into. ""I didn't take your comments that way. You do have a valid point, and I certainly will take it into consideration.
As for the package I sent you, it was odd that it took so long to get to you. I guess when dealing with the USPS, that has to be considered..
Cheers, John
John's idea of sending out 5-6 pairs makes eminent sense to me. I can easily assemble a group of audiophiles (whose ears are a hell of a lot better than mine) who would welcome the challenge of this kind of comparison. Whether we would come to a coherent conclusion is another matter :-)
However, we better get moving on this pretty soon or Roberto and Jeff will be long-gone on their bicycles!!Once the weather gets good, those boys can be pretty scarce...
...as long as they listened on only one system, I would predict your group would agree on the merits of each of the cables.They may disagree on the importance of those merits and their final ranking, but I'd bet they'd be pretty close.
"What length should the cables be? Is 5 foot sufficient? 10?"I consider 8 foot to be the maximum before a speaker cable becomes nominally long, but 10 footers may accommodate some folks needs.
"What termination is most popular? Would lugs be enough?"
While most folks tend to prefer spades (myself included), I think an arduous comparitive listening test of 5 or 6 sets of speaker cables would be best served by quick-disconnect BFA connectors (AudioQuest offers some fine sounding BFA banana's, BTW). If spades were selected, a universal fit type should be selected to accommodate 1/4'' or 5/16'' binding posts at either end of the cable.
"Would you be willing to try them all, and fill out a review of some type."
I would think any participant should agree to such.
"And then, pay for shipment to the next person in the program."
Since it would be a non-commercial endeavour, I think all participants should agree to such.
"Please respond only if you'd like to do this"
Sorry for a disregard the request, as I'm not interested in participating (other than tossing in these opines). It's an interesting prospect, though. I'd be interested in reading the reports.
Been a while, eh? Happy New year.RE: banana's: That sounds very good, but I have two worries..
1. Cost. as of now, I have been considering 3 trials of 3 pairs, that's 36 banana's.
2. Resistance. For the lower guage wires, I really am worried about total resistance. If a load is 4 ohms, 1% loop total is 40 milliohms..2.5 per foot means #14 exceeds what I'd like, #12 gives me 12.8 milliohms over 4 connections, #10 gives me 22 milliohms over 4 connections. I'm not sure banana's can do that repeatedly.
Since I hate the concept of rapid switched testing, I want people to take a week or two..too long, and we all die of old age, too short, I simply do not like.
I hope spade lugs are not too much of an inconvienience.
Duster: ""
If spades were selected, a universal fit type should be selected to accommodate 1/4'' or 5/16'' binding posts at either end of the cable.""That information is very useful. Thank you.
Re: reports..I think a generic report form should be devised, and it should be posted online. I have no desire to moderate or otherwise affect the reports. But that brings up an interesting point...feedback on the wires must not be able to specify which wire does what, as that could contaminate results further down the road. I gotta think about that..
Cheers, John
Yes please. The larger spades are important these days.
Regards,
Geoff
it doesn't make sense to me to give feedback to anyone except you UNTIL everyone has had a crack at the cables, if then.
That's probably the only way to do it. I had in mind something bjh had told me, that he would send me the results, which I would be able to approve or not, I guess depending on some criteria of mine..I told him I didn't want the results directly, but my "charge" for the wires was for him to post here in cables, removing me from the path.But with multiple results, I guess the only way is to channel them to me.
When complete, I can post it all..any errors or changes can be simply spotted by the "subjects"..guaranteeing correctness.
I live about 300 miles south of Ted Smith. Put me on the route.
Your curcuming to the flim-flam of cable magic are you ?
surely not :¬)
I do not believe in magic. To the extent possible, this will be a controlled and scientific endeavor.It is trivial to demonstrate by equation, why biwiring removes a distortion that is caused by monowire feeding a branch circuit like a crossover..the fact that this distortion has not been measured is simply nature of the beast..FFT's cannot see zero integral energy signals. I've slapped some rather intelligent mucky mucks upside the head with that, they have failed to shoot my hypothesis down.
The crux of that analysis shows that cable loop resistance should be less than .5 to 1% of the load, as opposed to the 5% typically accepted as a simple powerloss criteria...when a branch load is used..
Cable inductance, by it's nature, is another non linear storage mechanism (E = 1/2 L I 2 ) which is a nasty thing feeding a branch circuit. And again, a distortion type which appears not to be amenable to FFT analysis.
And both entities will have an effect on localization parameters..the question for the audio researchers is of course, how much is audible. I slap them guys with numbers also, but as of yet, nobody has awakened to the gauntlet.
If you read below, you will see that I am proposing a methodology which subjectively tests cables which have been designed with specific parameters controlled for. Inductance, resistance, ε, and capacitance. Not magic, not some entity which does not exist.The subjective testing will be designed to determine if a preference exists, given a choice between cables which have one entity altered.
To the best of my knowledge, this has not been done before. Since I have the ability to design cables with specified parameters, I am suggesting this trial.
Since the measure is subjective, and the variables define a 3-D space due to three degrees of freedom (remember, I can control 3 variables, the fourth is set by equational relationships), it is simpler to approach optimal by three orthogonal vectors rather than toss 2 or three dozen cable sets upon the "victims", that'll never work.
Given the nature of localization unknowns, the lack of rigorous parameter control in the past, and the equational results I have garnered to date, I cannot reasonably conclude that cables do not make a difference..for you to convince me otherwise, you must successfully show my theories incorrect. If you wish to do such, I would be happy to discuss..
My strength lies not in my hearing audible differences in cables, but the theory and the math. I do not own nor want a specific outcome to the tests I propose. What happens, happens..
Just asking....
That'd double the package size..since I don't know what I'm looking at shipping wise, I'd hold off on bi for a while.However, it'd be simple enough for you to use the sent cables as either the lows or highs, or even both, and give everybody your take. Since the materials I'd be using are not expensive, later arrangements could be made. I must warn you, it can get expensive..the last wire I sent somebody was a valhalla clone which cost 40 cents per meter..and that's WITHOUT terminations..this stuff ain't cheap, I tell ya..
Biwiring doesn't place as great a demand on resistance as mono, so you'd probably be more inclined to select based on inductance..but who knows...
HowdyThe first time I read this I assumed you were talking about cables for a 5.1 setup (since that's what I have.)
Then I realized you were probably talking about 5 or 6 stereo pairs to compare...
Anyway FWIW In my present setup 6 feet is comfortable, I'm using 8'.
Spades.
I'd pay the shipping if it wasn't outrageous.
But I'm sure you'd get more takers if people didn't have to feel like they had to pay to do you a favor :) Perhaps you could promise to give them back twice their money if you ever sold any cables or cable designs, then they could think of it as an investment and perhaps write it off :)
Ted Smith: ""
But I'm sure you'd get more takers if people didn't have to feel like they had to pay to do you a favor :) Perhaps you could promise to give them back twice their money if you ever sold any cables or cable designs, then they could think of it as an investment and perhaps write it off :)""Ah, good point.
I hadn't thought of it as a favor to me, since I have no desire to make any cables for profit, but I see your point. My interest is in correlating cable parameters to impressions and speaker systems. All cable designs, as in materials, procedures, and electrical paramters, would be public knowledge, allowing anybody at all to duplicate the designs.
As for cost, I'm not sure what shipping would be, since I don't know weight. 5 stereo sets would be 60 to 80 feet, and I'd probably range from #10 to #14 equivalent, skimping on an outer jacket to keep shipping cost down. With enough players, a least distance per ship could be worked out..
Cheers, John
HowdyTo be clear: I knew your motives, but I thought perhaps not everyone here did.
Also I have personal experience testing for you in the past and I believe it went well for both of us (except that I still have your wire :) I'm glad you'll be terminating the cables since crimping bare wire (with whiskers sticking out) at my amps and speakers scared me a little.
Just FYI my cables are #18 and the designer believed that thicker was worse (tho I haven't tested this myself.)
Hey Ted,I agree with your cable's designer, and was really interested in JN's offer until he mentioned the guages.
It is a shame that at least some thinner gauges are not part of the "TEST"...even if they are only to rule out such guages.
The guage is not set in concrete.In fact, I've considered making several rounds of tests, with smaller groups.
Since I actually design and make the cables, I can control three of four variables...Resistance, inductance, and either capacitance or dielectric coefficient..
The first run I was considering was varying guage, down to #10, and going up to whatever people think would be a good upper limit. The first run would have the same dielectric for all pairs, and identical inductances..capacitance would be governed by the dielectric choice and geometry.
Second run would fix guage, vary inductance.
Third run, dielectric.
Still workin the possibilities, and input from all is welcome..
Methodology would be rather simple..given two or three cables with some parameter altered, which does each individual prefer.. Since there is no timetable, each person could use and play with the stuff for a week or two..before sending the stuff onward to the next player.
I'm also thinking about how to be devious about this...How to make a cable with low effective guage look and feel the same as a larger one, to try to eliminate bias..some people like thin guage, others thick. It'd be better if both or all three of a run look exactly the same. (this falls apart if people measure the cable, so I'd want that to not be done..)
Ted, if you want to, you could sent my cables back, I'll pop some spades on them, and include them in a future run.
JN,I wouldn't mind taking part if there were some 24-30g cables in the mix.
Also, you never said if they were solid or stranded or both.
First runs will be stranded for ease of assembly. I guess I could start with 24 awg as it provides the most flexibility with respect to multiples and inductance. But I think 24 is where I'll start..
Everything except the pay for shipping part....
In my case the spades are a must, at least at the amplifier end. Sounds like fun.
I figure anybody interested would be willing to drop a hamilton or a Jackson to mail them to another audiophile. Course, that'd be in the USA.Cheers, John
I keep hearing the bi-wire word.
Some things are just a "given".Bi wiring just doubles the lugs, I gotta research some cheap ones else I'll go broke.. I was thinking of making them out of 1/8 copper also.
I was beginning to think that bi-wiring was the issue you were trying to sort out with your experiment.
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