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I already looked at the forum archives on dedicated lines but am looking for additional detailed advice.. I have an electrician scheduled to come out next week to estimate the work on installing 2 dedicated lines. I have a DK Signature integrated, Jolida JD 100, Modwright Sony 999, Shunyata Hydra 4 and will soon be receiving an Audio Magic Mini Stealth (not the Digital). I have Reimer Wind River speakers- I plan to connect the integrated to one line and my digital gear on the other line. The biggest concern I have is regarding hum, which I've heard can occur when having more than one dedicated line. I do not have problems with hum now. (should I just go with one ded line?) I'll be getting 12 ga Romex or 10ga if I can get the electrician to work with me. What talking points do I need to make with the electrician? What about grounding? (I really don't understand how to communicate the topic of grounding) Electricians don't seem to have a clue about the goals of an audiophile for installing dedicated lines. When I told the electrician on the phone that I had hospital grade outlets already- he said "wow you're going all out." I'm not very technically oriented either, so if you can, please answer in laymans terms. Thanks.
Follow Ups:
My audio system is in my family room in a split level home built in '65. The family room sits on a concrete slab. The circuit panel in the basement is not accessible to the family room unless you go outside the house and back in or go up through the attic and do signifcant damage to
ceilings, drywall etc. The estimate to go outside and come back, which would be the easiest and do the least damage to the house would be $1000. I'm reluctant to pay this much...
Unless your house has been rewired since it was built, chances are good that the wiring needs some work to make it safe and bring it up to code. The dedicated lines may be much less costly if done as part of a larger project.Did your electrician do a thorough inspection? The quote sounds high to me, but I'm not familiar with your house. If the electrician did not inspire confidence, call another one.
Your safety is much more important than the performance of your audio system.
He knows his stuff. The house has been rewired previous to my owning it.
If it weren't for the fact that the family room is built on a concrte slab and complexity of the install because of it's position compared to the circuit panel in the basement, the cost would probabaly be $500. As it stands, the cheapest way to put in ded lines would be to run the lines outside from the basement circuit panel and back inside to the family room, using pvc pipe to fun them through outside.
Sorry to learn that it will cost so much, but every house is a different challenge.
Hello my friend: a few months ago I had a Certified Electrician to make a Dedicated Circuit and Dedicated 240 volts Line to feed all my audio-components. Then I got the Richar Gray Power Company 240 Volts SubStation, which is a "240 volts in / 120 volts out" unit, it is to say a Step-down transformer. The improvement in my sound was huge, exceeding all my expectations. No hums at all, of any kind. So I was wondering if this solution is interesting to you, since, although there is only one Dedicated Line (instead of two just like you are planing), it is a 240 volts one, and then the RGPC 240 Volts Substations has four Hubble Hospital Grade Outlets into which you plug in your components. Good luck. Best, Antonio Machado.
I hope you are prepared for the electrician (a) raising code issues and (b)laughing his a** off. Mine is a friend and an audiophile. He would do both.I have been messing about with high fidelity for over 50 years and realize that things that you think shouldn't make a difference sometimes do, that high fidelity is a quest, not an achievement, and that attention to subtle detail is often rewarded, but it seems to me that this discussion has gotten far beyond anything to do with music or any electrical engineering considerations I am aware of.
I have found that a dedicated circuit, and its intelligent application, are worthwhile system enhancements, but much of what I am reading here is witchcraft.
I have nine dedicated 20A lines running from a sub-panel. Seven of the lines are currently in use. I don't use "cheater plugs" or disable earth grounds on any of my gear. No hum.
and am awaiting an estimate now for 3 lines to one room and 2 to another. I used the checklist linked below as a guide when laying out the scenario for the electrician. If you haven't seen it, it's a good resource. You may decide some of it is overkill -- I'm not following everything exactly -- but I was glad to have it as a reference point.Cheers.
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It's not I'm anti-social,
I'm only anti-work,
Glory Osky, that's why I'm a jerk!
Start your discussion with the electrician at the circuit breaker panel. If it is old, be sure the breakers are still considered safe to use. Our 30-year old house had breakers that were found to not trip if the load increased gradually, so we had the panel replaced when we had to have wires installed for an air conditioner. This is a safety item and you may not like the cost, but it will be cheaper to get all the work done at one time.I would put in more circuits if the panel has capacity for them. All circuits should be fed from the same leg of the 240-volt main, and circuits with particularly noisy items like computers and TV setups should be shifted to the other leg if possible.
I would avoid metal boxes, as the steel has magnetic properties that can affect the sound. Try to get the electrician to route the cables with some separation between them. Bundling them together looks neater, but increases the coupling between them.
Have a separate ground wire run for each circuit. I believe it is permitted to connect these grounds together at the outlets if the different circuits feed a multi-gang box, but you want the ability to separate them. There will be a ground loop if your equipment is grounded. It should be silent, but it will still influence the ultimate resolution of your system, and experimenting with the grounds' local connection might be a good thing to be able to do.
I don't know the reason to run separate grounds. If one feeds to both, it seems that you'd have a better ground reference. I don't know. On my new room, I ran 3 dedicated lines and because it was new, I ran all 12-2 romex, so I have separate grounds.But in adding lines, you probably will run conduit and the electrician will run 4 wires for 2 lines, red, green, white and black. In my old house that's what I did and had zero issues and it was my best tweak by far.
I thnk phase is the biggest issue. Yes, keep them off the major appliance legs, which doesn't help for the air or the welder ;)
On digital, I'm still on the fence. Yes, it needs to be off the analog lines, absolutely. But, in my old place I think I had it on a different phase too.
On last thing, do folks know that the neutral also gets connected to the same place as the ground in the panel. Basically, you really have 2 grounds and a hot. It sure surprised me when I hooked up the panel for my media room.
-Rod
I don't know whether separate grounds or a common ground would give better results in all systems; I suspect each case is sufficiently different that it is worth having the ability to try them both ways. One can always tie the grounds together at the audio system if each circuit has its own ground, but if there is only one ground wire installed, it cannot be divided.The outlets are usually so far away from the safety ground-neutral-earth tie point at the panel that the safety ground wire is an antenna for noise. This is why some folks do dangerous things, such as having a separate audio ground rod or lifting the AC safety ground, and get improved sound. A grounded metallic conduit with insulated equipment ground wire that is tied only to the outlet ground sockets provides some measure of shielding for the AC safety ground wire. Perhaps this is what you had in your previous installation.
But in adding lines, you probably will run conduit and the electrician will run 4 wires for 2 lines, red, green, white and black. In my old house that's what I did and had zero issues and it was my best tweak by far.
4 wires, black, red, white, and green. What you have described is 2 separate circuits, a multi conductor branch circuit, not 2 dedicated circuits. Each hot 120V conductor shares the same neutral conductor. Each hot conductor must be connected, one hot to a single pole breaker on L1 the other hot conductor to a breaker on L2. In this case only the unbalanced load of the two 120V separate circuits will return on the common neutral conductor. The balanced load of the two separate circuits are in series with one another. In other words any ac noise from one separate 120V load will flow through the loads on the other separate circuit.
When installing true dedicated circuits,
(1) hot conductor
(1) neutral conductor
(1) equipment grounding conductor.
Each dedicated branch circuit shall have its own equipment grounding conductor as per NEC. If you choose to tie all the equipment grounds together at the load ends of the branch circuits you can do so as per NEC. Some times in the case of long runs of dedicated branch circuits this will help if ground loop problems exist.
I've got 2 dedicated line(wish I had 3 but that's another story) and things work fine, no hum or buzz.I had my electrician put both lines on the same phase(same rail that is).
It's the best tweak you can do.
I had two, did 3 in this room and still wish I'd done four.But Ted has 10, each amp wants current and I've plenty of amps. Well, I'll miss a dynamic. The flip side is the inspector. He'll ask why you have 10 twenty amp breakers on the sub panel when the service is only 200 amps and you already have two other sub panels.
Grrrr.
Yeah, I tried putting both mono blocks on one line and everything else on the other but things got slow, my dynamics went to hell in a hand basket. In retrospect, I should have put in 4...one for each amp, one for digital and the 4th for analog.
Hi Red,
I ran a 10-3 line to my panel.I use this for my cdp and line conditioner.I only run my cdp to the line conditioner and the amp still direct.I found that the line conditioner still did not let the amp breath like a direct connect to the wall as did my friend.
I have no hum and never had that problem.Please make sure he dedicates the line completely as i did not(ground) and when running an electric heater I can hear the Music Circle LC humming as it appears to be doing it's job.I also have the same amp as you.Best to You,Bob
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