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In Reply to: Re: Hooked up a QSC amp & questioning my mental state. posted by Mechans on April 28, 2007 at 21:35:38:
Oh yeah. I'm sure the MSRP of a lot of the boutique pieces are hugely inflated. Actually, I'd be surprised if a $5,000 amp cost even $700 to build.Seriously, maybe I don't possess the hearing ability of some audiophile folk. Everyone's different. But I've heard $40,000 amps, (a pair of $20,000 tube monoblocks) and amps costing only several hundred. There have been some differences, sure. But to my ears, they weren't huge differences. And those differences could've just as easily been attributed to the speakers or something else in the chain.
There have been several strictly controlled tests held on the audible differences of amplifiers, including one pretty well-known ABX test done by CBS labs in Stereo Review. There were amps in all price points and types, ranging from a pair of incredibly expensive Futterman tube monoblocks all the way down to a cheap $200 Pioneer receiver. They matched the levels of the amps meticulously & used a couple of different highly regarded speakers for the test. The results were pretty much 50/50 on all of the tests, even comparing the cheap Pioneer to the Futterman tube amps. And even among the group of die-hard audiophiles, the results were totally random.
That's not to say that there aren't any differences at all, but I've never been able to hear a staggering difference between any two reasonably decent, properly functioning amps of any type. I think there's likely a bigger difference to be heard from other factors like speakers, speaker placement, furniture, source components, ear wax, and the like.
But that's just my opinion, and I don't know everything.
Anyway, I didn't mean to stir up a controversy. My initial post was only meant to say that I was surprised that the QSC amp sounded a bit better than the Marantz. I thought they might sound very similar, or if anything, the Marantz sound a tad better. I was just surprised that it was the other way around.
Follow Ups:
I've owned maybe 50 or so amps and preamps since I caught the bug in '73. I tried and tried to get the sound I wanted, but for the most part, the amps sounded pretty much the same. Maybe my Krell has a slightly better bottom end and my Threshold a smoother top, but I'm not even sure about that. To me the components sounded pretty much the same and spending more made little or no difference.
I got into tubes for awhile in the early '90s and liked the sound much better, but I had a lot of tube problems so went back to solid state in the mid-late '90s.
I ventured back to tubes again about a year ago and could not be happier. Finally there was the sound quality I searched the world for and the tubes today are much more robust and reliable.
I don't think tubes sound better than solid state. They sound different. I like the difference, however.
Thanks for your post. Seems like we think somewhat alike on the audio path.I am a regular dealer in all manner of audio stuff. But I only wound up that way because I was buying and selling so much gear 'searching for the sound' as the Grateful Dead put it. Yup...I could hear some differences in the equipment, but there were SOOOOO many variables that whenever I got a combination that I liked I was afraid to touch anything!
However, (and I REALLY agree with you on this one....) I chose my speakers FIRST, (stacked Quad ESL-57's) because as you said, there are HUGE differences in the TYPE of sound from these when compared to source components. In essence they determine the basic NATURE of the sound that you will hear.
Then....after MUCH swapping, (and I mean, with no exaggeration, HUNDREDS of components) I finally found an amplifier that when I plugged it in, from the VERY FIRST SECOND OF LISTENING, I knew this was what I had been looking for. So I set about optimising my system using these amps (monoblocks) and speakers as the basis for the system. In my mind I feel fortunate that I have not once been tempted to move away from these. Other components have come and gone a few times over since then, but I have never felt dissatisfaction with the FUNDAMENTAL BUILDING BLOCKS of my system. I think in this sense we share the same audio values and experiences.
There are just simply too many other variables that affect the sound. Cables, tweaks, tube rolling, but to a LESSER degree than speakers FIRST and then amps....
But don't ya know that there's always something new coming along..... DOH!
=====================A good story.....Just one thing that REALLY rocked my boat in terms of how many variables there were in the system. Because I am a tube dealer, I have had HUNDREDS of matched pairs of all kinds of rare tubes go through my system. But after an evening of swapping tubes in and out of my amps (I had put together about 10 different pairs of rare 12AU7's and settled into some critical listening with a good friend,) at the end of the night after we had spent a few hours talking about how great the system sounded and how (this is the important part...) I COULDN'T EVEN IMAGINE THE SYSTEM GETTING ANY ORDER OF MAGNITUDE BETTER (little changes, sure, but quantum leaps...no way) we popped in a pair of tubes that were close cousins but not identical (my tech looked at the schematics and told me it would be ok for me to hot swap them...and WHAMMO! Just WHAMMO! An absolute HOLY SH*T moment in my search for the best possible sound from my system.
What had sounded the closest to a live performance that I have EVER EVEN IMAGINED a few minutes earlier all of a sudden sounded veiled and flat in comparison to what we were now hearing. From swapping ONE FRIGGIN TUBE! It was, by definition, UN-believable. And my reaction to this moment was torn between wanting to jump up and down and shout with joy because I had found a piece of the holy grail puzzle as far as my system synergy was concerned and wanting to cry thinking about how many 10's of thousands of permutations were possible with all of the other tubes and components in my system to try and raise it even further. A glass ceiling had been pierced for sure.
I'll throw in that I have NOT done much experimentation since then. My system sounds superb, to me. Can it get better? Apparently Yes. But I'm not going to KILL myself trying to get there. Just gonna plod along at my own pace and if I make any new discoveries along the way, well....I'll just take those as small gifts.
Though I'm not a tube guy, just because of the economic side of it. The parts I especially liked were:
"whenever I got a combination that I liked I was afraid to touch anything!"
I know what you mean. That's why the Marantz amp stayed in my rig for so long. And I still really like it. I still think it sounds quite nice.
"we popped in a pair of tubes that were close cousins but not identical...and WHAMMO!"
That's kind of what I thought when I swapped amps. I wasn't expecting that.
"I'm not going to KILL myself trying to get there. Just gonna plod along at my own pace and if I make any new discoveries along the way, well....I'll just take those as small gifts."
Yup. I'm happy. So I think I'm good for awhile.
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