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I poured over the archives looking for a list of reasons why Tube equipment sounds so good. There is many posts talking about differant things but couldn't find a complete run down on why tubes are so nice to listen to. This is not a Tube vs SS thread. I just want a general list of what tubes do so well. I can start if off from a thread I found back in 2004.1: All audio circuts produce distortion, some of that distortion (of the sound you hear) is in the form of harmonics: tubes produce mainly low-order distortion, which is close to the musical harmonics we WANT to hear in the first place. Solid state circuts, or transistors, produce both low and high-order harmonics, the trouble with high-order artifacts being dissonance with the musical harmonic (meaning what you hear, however slightly, is in effect out-of-tune with the musical signal).
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Follow Ups:
A french company explained it best, i think they're called Lardin. Solid state circuits distort the pathway of the electrons as they make their way to the speakers, imparting memory distortion in the form of ghosting and smearing of the sound signal before it reaches the ear. Tubes work in a vacuum, imparting no ghosting or memory distortion to the electronic signal. They are always in sync. You hear a more holographic sound with the body of the music intact.
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Hello!
From personal experience I must say that the only advantages with tube power amp technomoly was that I could keep my mulled wine, tea or coffee warm on the amp transformer(s).
All other advantages I might have experienced are in the department entitled: PERSONAL PREFERENCES, which means that they are impossible to relate to other people.
My suggestion to you would be to pick up a couple of promising amps and try them out at home. The one you like, you buy...just like with SS amps...
> > .
1. Tube glow in darkened listening rooms.
2. Most tube amps are interesting or attractive in appearance.
3. Your father, or someone in your childhood had tubed audio of some
kind.
4. If you live in a cool climate the heat from tubes is welcome.
5. Tube amps tend to have a creamy smoothness in the mid-range.
6. Tubes can be upgraded when/if better tubes can be found.
7. Having tubed components encourages investment (hording) skills
while watching tubes you need become scarce and expensive.
Seriously now, Joe (jsm) wrote a great reply below.Cheers
This business about distortion and even harmonics is one of the oldest, but most modern SS equipment has such low distortion it really doesn't make any difference in so far as it degrades SS sound. However, some tube equipment does have relatively high HD, so high it can be heard, and some people like the sound of added even-harmonic distortion in their music. Not long ago I was at a friend's house. He had a very expensive SET amp with high amounts of HD. He just loved it, but I found it quite off-putting. Whatever floats your boat.In my experience, most high quality SS and tube equipment can not be distinguished from one another on the basis of whether they are tubed or SS. I can hear as much difference among SS units or among tube units as between tubes and SS. Also, the very best SS and tube amps I have heard sound remarkably similar, as long as they remain in their linear range.
All that said, the tube is inherently a more linear device in the sweet spot of its operating range than a transistor. I have heard the claim that a tube amp is capable of revealing finer microdynamics, or responding more accurated to finer levels of volume change, like it can show more shades of gray in the color analogy. And I have conviced myself there is some merit to this argument in listening tests, but I wouldn't say it is dramatic, in your face.
If people say tubes are better because they have a warmer sound, they may indeed may have a warmer sound that you like better, but that warmer sound is a coloration of the particular tube device. I have heard many more tube designs with colored sound than SS ones. It is a coloration, or some people would say, a distortion, but again, whatever floats your boat. So, in the end, there's no substitute for listening. But it must be with your speakers, as different speakers load different amps in different ways. This can be a difficult and time-consuming process if you want to invesigate it in any detail.
I like both tubes and solid state. For years I have gone back and forth.
I do notice one thing, however. When I have not listened to tubes in awhile, I miss their sound. After awhile I grow tired of their embellished presentation and go back to solid state. I can go for several years happy with the ss sound. I can only go a few months with tube gear before I get listening fatigue.
Their are countless differences between the hundreds of tube/solid state preamps and power amps so generalizations are hard to avoid.
what about a fuller sound?
That SET amp with the high HD did have a very full sound! That's what my friend liked. Indeed, getting rid of all the harmonics added by the amp does make the sound leaner, and I prefer a cello to sound like a cello I hear in person, which it doesn't with high HD, but if he likes it, fine. It's his money and his ears, and his enjoyment is the only thing that counts. I say this in a totally non-judgmental way. We are after the creation of the best experience of listening to music that we can afford, and if someone finds something that works great for him or her, but not for me, so what?
If this even/odd thing is really the answer as to why tubes and transister sound different, how do we explain this? I just took a look at three SS pr-amp reviews on the Stereophile site, a Sim, a McIntosh, and a Mark Levinson. They all produce predominantly 2nd harmonic THD, nothing else rising above the noise floor. That seems to fly in the face of this theory, especially since most people probably wouldn't describe any of these pre-amps as tube-like.
Many tube amps have a high output impedance. You can easily check the technical reviews of amps at Stereophile.com or Soundstage.com to see the frequency response into the simulated speaker load.A significant article by E. Brad Meyer was published in Stereo Review, linked below.
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"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
I agree with you, and have posted in the past my feeling that the output impedance of tube power amps, i.e. transformer coupling, contributes a lot to the tube sound. But in this case, I was specifically asking about pre-amps. I would think that the output impedance of a tube pre-amp, even if higher that a SS counterpart, would be low enough to minimze any voltage divider effect with the input impedance of the power amp it was driving.
Yes, the "odd order/even order harmonics" business really doesn't stand up as a distinguishing characteristic of one type of device vs. the other. For one thing, that difference is often characteristic of a single-ended vs. push-pull output circuit, with either type of device. Push-pull circuit suppress even order harmonics.One pretty clear difference is in the way the two devices handle overloads -- which accounts for guitar players' preference for tube amps. But, one would think a competently designed amplifier would not, under ordinary circumstances, be driven into overload.
The truth is generalizations are pretty useless because circuit design is such a big element in what the "sound" is with either type of device.
I think what the other posters pointed out is that modern day amps are done so well that you can't classify any of them anymore like we used to. I remember back in the late 90's people on here used to easily run a list what a tube amp can do vs any ss amp.
I've been reading hardware reviews in Stereophile and Absolute Audio for 5 years straight now. I noticed that SS amps now are breaking down all those barriers.
_______________________________________*Analog fans may be blind-but digital fans are deaf*
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HI Stylin,
Well, I refuse....and for a good reason. Such lists end up just stereotyping the sound which is not accurate. All tube amps sound different. If you heard my system I doubt that you would be able to pin point it as tube based. It doesn't sound solid state either. Some would like it and some wouldn't. Any list you put together would be more misleading than helpful.There is only one person that counts and that's you. Make your own list.
nt
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is that they more closely obey the rules of human hearing than transistors.Specifically, they do not generate the odd-ordered higher harmonics which are very rare in nature and also the cause of hardness in transistor amplifiers. Human ears use these harmonics as loudness cues. How they manifest is as: sense of being loud, sense of harshness or hardness/brittle (in extreme cases).
This is perhaps the thing that you can point to that is both measurable and audible (something rare in the world of audio) that is fundamentally different about tubes.
I looked at your website and didn't see any integrateds. What would you / do you recommend in this category?
I don't have any recommendations- I've not really looked at what's out there. But if I was looking, it would be tube and triode...
X
Effectively designed tube circuits produce a predominance of even order versus odd order distortion products. Even order distortion is more consonant with the music. Odd order distortion produces amusical distortion that provides an unnatural sense of tension in the music. You are right, this is not necessarily a tube vs. solid state debate as solid state components can sound very musical but IMHO it is more complicated and expensive to produce a "musical" solid state piece than it is to design the same with tubes. Especially regarding preamplifiers! Some SS designers will emphasize MOSFET transistors rather than bipolar ones as the MOSFETS have a more "tube-like" distortion profile. Witness SS designs from conrad johnson, a fine tube equuipment manufacturer. Their SS stuff always is based on a MOSFET output stage.
The differences are much more exaggerated in guitar amps (tubes vs. solid state). Tube guitar amps sound...like what you'd expect. SS guitar amps sound like dreck...very harsh and not particluarly musical. Perhaps it's just a matter of what you're used to.I grew up during the tail end of the tube era and happen to like the mellower sound of tube circuitry (yes I rather enjoy that kinb of distortion because I am used to it). Perhaps today's mp3 digitized generation growing up on digitized sound will think of that kind of compressed sound as the norm...and prefer ss?
I think you've found your answer. The evil THD that we tried desperately to avoid in solid state amps is what makes tubes sound good. It's like soft-focus on a lens - or if you prefer - an airbrushed photo.
Solid state sounds more like an outdoor concert. Tube sounds more like an indoor concert.
human perception has a blind spot to some kinds of distortion and is more sensitive to others. A couple percent of pure second harmonic is not readily heard whereas a tiny fraction of 9th sounds decidedly irritating.Tube distortion is more consonant with the way we hear.
Digital amps can sound very much like a tube amp - and I suspect that future digital amps can be dialed in to sound like just about anything you want them to. The trouble is that as much as it sounds like a tube amp, it will never actually be one. There's that psychological factor - not to mention that digital amps don't have tubes that glow in a darkend listening room.
They sound good. Period.OK. I'll give you another, although they are not cheap,
from $500 used, you can get tube components that sounds good, while
for solid state, you made have to pay much more.Why?? I don't know, but it appears that any deficiency in power supply or circuitry is readily apparent in solid state.
I think that tube preamps are a no-brainer. Tube amps depend upon the speakers.
Thanks! I believe you. If I said that to a co-worker the first question would be "why". Remember. Normal people that don't know anything about audio would question this without some logical explanation.You did answer with:
Why?? I don't know, but it appears that any deficiency in power supply or circuitry is readily apparent in solid state.I see that is a right answer. Could you expand upon that so it would be more exceptable as a fact rather than opinion? I read in the threads about this before. Something about the "power transformer being over saturated and feedback circuittry?"
_______________________________________*Analog fans may be blind-but digital fans are deaf*
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and solid-state are low-impedance devices which may be they compete with other devices in the circuit. For driving speakers, that is exactly what you want, but the damage to the signal may already have occurred.There you go, but I am just guessing and they might just fall for this explanation or, at least, will think hard about a come-back.
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Except for a few boutique brands favored by audiophiles, how many engineers in the last fifty years are actively designing tube audio circuits? For that matter, how many of these amps are using circuits that have had any meaningful changes since 1930?
Also, how many new designs have come out using solid state? B&O comes up with ICE and everyone buys them for a $100 each and puts them into $20,000 amps.
Frankly, SS or tube, amplification is pretty much a done deal circuit-wise. Has been for a while. We audiophiles are the only ones that think the revolution isn't over, and end up paying through the nose for it.I am no engineer, but I do have an associate degree in electronics. I program for a living, but I do remember some of the things I learned in school. Enough to know that when somebody starts talking about skin effect in power cables, or choke regulation in a SS power supply, or charge me $3500 for an upgrade that entails soldering in a couple of capacitors, somebody is trying to take me for a fool.
It interesting that you point out ICE based amps as a rip-off. I feel exactly the same way when I see a single-ended triode amp consisting of maybe twenty parts selling for $15K.
HI stylin,
In all my years I have heard a number of theories. Some probably are valid and others are pure speculation. I concluded that I don't care. I prefer tubes, I own tubes, and my ears tell me they are best.I do not like all tubes though. You will find a much greater range of signatures with tube equipment than with SS. You must decide which flavor you like. We can't help you there.
Thanks Sparky for the reply.
I completely understand what your saying about tube and ss amps. I've read plenty of threads over the last 5 years with the same responses. But what I was hoping to gather here is a list of virtues on why tube preamp/amps sound great. Mundanes here at work that don't know anything about audio get a blank look when I tell them Im looking at buying a $3000 tube amp. They want to know why anyone would ever buy a tube amp. I get the same reaction for vinyl records to lol.
So basically I just need a general list of reasons why tube amps sound so good. Why anyone would want to buy one.I'm sure alot of manufacturer websites displays advertisments on why their tube amp sounds great. I suppose I could copy'paste some of them.
_______________________________________*Analog fans may be blind-but digital fans are deaf*
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