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In Reply to: Would a good pre-amp improve sound? posted by audiogremlin on March 5, 2007 at 15:37:29:
Can you find a dealer with demo units to take home for evaluation, or bring your amp to a dealer and try it?I suspect the preamp section in your Moon is nearly as good, if not better that any NEW $1500 CDN preamp you'll find.
Just a guess, cheers
Follow Ups:
What cables are you using, speaker and interconnect? Is the power in your home good? Do you utilize any sort of room treatments? What is it that you are hearing that you do or do not like? Have you exhausted speaker set up? Do you sit in the near field? Do you have your speakers on the long wall of your room or the short wall? How far from the back wall and side walls are your speakers? We need some answers big guy.I am not sure that a preamp is going to be the answer just yet. Also, the Jolida player does not have the most robust output stage. It may be that you are hearing something objectionable due to the synergy between the Jolida and the Sim (not sure).
One step at a time. With $1500 CDN there are other areas that may need to be addressed. Take it slow so that you minimize the chances of losing the attributes of your system that you already like.
in my opinion cables (unless you undderstand the effects of true audio associated electrical parameters)are the worst form of advice. First of all the front end should be able to drive low impedence and or capacitive loads before throwing cables at it. I can guarantee if a front end can do both you will notice less and less improvement with big buck and different cables. Most single opamp based outputs will not do both without distortion, and even very many half conceived discreet circuits and you can only alter this distortion with different cables.Colin
Fortunatley, I never took advice from those like vynhul addict. I am not suggesting that speaker cables are the answer for this gentleman. I am merely suggeting that he address his speaker cables and room before buying a preamp.As for the Arcam, it has a robust enough output stage to easily drive the Sim integrated. The Arcam's output impedance is 60 ohms with 2.25 volts. More than enough smarty.
The reason you dont believe in cables is because your speakers or whatever else it is that you use, isn't letting you hear the difference. Take the shit out of your ears.... Dont come into the thread spewing nonsense about people not knowing technical aspects of cables design. What is it that you would like to know about speaker cable design. Should we start with eddy current, capacitance, inductance or resistance.
I am merely trying to prevent someone from buying a preamp that already has a very good integrated with an active line stage. It is not necessary and I feel he or she needs to look elsewhere in their system.
Alot of cables are BS, however, there are designs out there that are truely worth auditioning. The only problem with the cable game is the MONEY that some of these theifs are charging!
than i ever have with cables. as for interconnects i will swear by cheap, run of the mill 30awg kynar wire from yes "rat shack". For speaker cables, a little home depot standard ofc. There is no s**t in my ears Sir, after building countless pre amps, power amplifiers and other often times redundant circuits i have yet to hear a cable that can even come close to bettering a "well designed circuit", and sound parts choices in terms of subjective or mmeasurable evaluation. If you like to throw your amplifier into sporatic oscillation with high capacitance speaker cables be my guest, its your amp, not mine. how does the arcam handle capacitive loads?, yes even small signal interconnects can have this issue. I guess there was a reason after all in why i left the asylum a year back for a forum with less hyperbole and much more realistic and contructive views, and not to mention a finer etiquitte with GRAMMAR..
Colin
I never compared cables to a well designed circuit. Stop argueing with yourself. To the small minded, cables do not make a difference. By the same token, to the small minded, cables make all the difference in the world. The fact is that cables do make a difference and there are all sorts of factors that come into play. The mere fact that some people dont have very sensitive hearing, or the gear that is used is not very revealing, can lead to the conclusion that cables do not make a difference. While I do believe there is alot of voodoo and monkey piss (how's that for grammar buddy)
squirted all over the cable industry, I do believe that there are a few manufacturers that have legitimate designs based in science and tuned by ear.The problem with this hobby is the extremeism that others like you put forth. This is a hobby that befits balance. Properly matched gear (source impedances, pre/amp impedance matching, cables, adequate output stages, properly designed power supplies, amp/speaker matching, etc....) is of course paramount. However, cables can have anywhere from a profound effect to none at all. The fact is that because you cant here it doesnt mean that there are not real (potentially positive) effects with the addition of properly designed cables.
Do not discount all cables. That is a serious injustice to someone using OFC Home Depot wire. Geometry, conductor material, dieletric, damping, wire gauge on so on means alot. Please, base your opinions in the reality of the hobby. Yes, some cable companies are rebranding battery cable but there are some that have put a lot of effort into researching and developing their products. I believe that you (my clean mouthed, proper grammar using extremist audio nut)need to go back to the drawing board.
Lastly, I would be willing to send you a few different pairs of cables that I have around. Just list the gear you have so I can verify that you are not running a Panasonic Home Theatre in a box (which would explain your not being able to hear the differences that cables make). Anyway, I would love to pontificate the point further but I need to go wash my mouth out!
By for now SIR
With Warm Regards,
Captain Potty Mouth
For the front end, Rotel RA-02 CD player with modified output stage ad823 handling I/V duties and Ad744/ad811 composite op amp output buffer, 49.9 ohm output impedence. Preamp is based on the opa627 biased into class A as a volume buffer and ad744/ad811 as gain block/buffer again 50 ohm output impedence, input is 100k. Power amplfier is dual mono based on the blameless topology presented by Doug Self based on the three stage lin topology, but utilizing a combination of feedforward and global error correction. Input impedence is 22k..A far cry from a home theatre in a box and imaging that some sold as HI-FI can only dream of having due to seldom used and vastly underrated circuit techniques.. Id love to try different cables, I dont write them off, i just dont feel that the dollar to improvement ration is very proportionate, It also seems apparent to me that most great "cable" designs come from the determined guys on the internet whom hold a desire to dispel some of the myths and design something that counts without draining your pocket book too badly. Most studios use Mogami, not expensive at all nor is it anything special..
Colin
Sounds like a nice system. As for the source, I know it is a great unit. Actually, when looking inside the Rotel RA-02, you will notice the use of Black Gates for output caps (NICE, or at least thoughtful). Its a shame that Rotel stopped making players of that quality. Anyway, its sounds like you have nice synergy going on.Just curious as to what speakers you are using?
Back to cables. There have been systems that I have heard that are not especially sensitive to speaker cable changes. However, I find that properly designed litz geometries (Shunyata, Silver Audio and Stealth Audio) or good ribbon (poor mans litz) designs can allow one to hear the benefit of speaker cables. This is NOT to say that you are going to like this better than what you have, but I for one, tend to like the sound (or lack of coloration) from these particular deigns. They have less of a signature than most other designs. I feel that the main benefit is of transparency, not so much what it adds or subtracts.
Properly designed speaker cables are expensive to design and manufacture. This fact is clouded by those manufacturers who take off the shelf wire and jacket it and brand it, then sprinkle monkey piss and dance in a circle around it and have the BALLS to charge prices that make car manufacturers blush. This has been the case for many years now. Alot of cable vendors DO NOT have any science behind their designs (voodoo practitioners). That is the another reason why some music lovers/audiophiles dont hear much of a difference from one cable to the next. There are many negatives associated with cable companies and there should be. They have been robbing the audiophile community for years.
Speaker wire is just Home Depot wire. Interconnects are Van Den Hul "The Well Hybrid". Power cords are stock cords.Power seems to be good in the home. No room treatments. Speaker setup is optimal in my setup. I sit about 9-10 feet away.
I have a Jolida JD-100a and an Arcam CD73T CD player. Arcam is detailed but the Jolida has better midrange. There is nothing objectionable about the sound (I think...). I like the sound, I just think it can be better.
In my most humble opinion, you definitely need better speaker cables. A good set of speaker cables will make a big difference in your set up. For starters I would look for a used or new pair of Audio Magic Excalibur II speaker cables. They are very smooth with good detail retrieval. They fare well in most any system that I have put them in. You could also look for a used pair of Shunyata Lyra's. The Lyra's are not very forgiving though and are on the pricier side.You may even want to try some room treatments at first reflection and even behind the listening position. That would be for starters. It is usually best to have mixture of diffraction and absorbtion strategicly placed in the room..
As for the CD players, I am familiar with both. I think they are both good players. With proper room treatments and better cabling you may end up prefering the Arcam. It has slightly better resolution of low level detail and in my opinion has a more neutral sound. Again, room treatments and better cables will allow your system to strut its stuff.
All the gear you have is really good. It is just a matter of refining with cables and treatments.
Power cables can be a crap shoot. I have heard the difference when using aftermarket power cords but I firmly believe that it would be best to leave them for last.
Sseason your system to taste. Everyone does it. If your system inspires you then so be it. Now get that Home Depot wire out of there before I call the Audiophile Police in your area!!!!!!!!! Go on get!
IMO you should lose the home depot speaker cables. I once did a test with a friend who was using CAT-5 cables. I took my Audioquest Caldera cables to his place and we compared them to the CAT-5. The improvement over the CAT was so pronounced that I was there till 2 AM! Remarkably, the Caldera was the lesser of my two cable runs, as I biwire my Vandersteens. The Volcano cables that I use for the Mid-tweeter are of even purer copper (PSC+). The point being...I and others have heard amazing improvements by improving the quality of our cables, especially the conductor material. You don't have to spend a king's ransom to get there. One to consider, that is recognized as a great value, would be the Kimber Kable family of speaker cables. Go for the best you can afford. You won't regret it!
BTW- I second the recommendation for Kimber Kable speaker cables. I would look at the 8TC's though. They are very good and have stood the test of time. Great mid priced cable. The rest of the speaker cables in their line are OK also, just not as good as the 8TC's. Kimber also has pricier offerings that I have not heard but may be worth checking out.Later.
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