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In Reply to: totally right nightdoggy! posted by centaurus3200 on February 24, 2007 at 19:54:53:
other people. being partnered in life with non US citizen has taught me that.in fact, I loathe the nationalist tendencies shown by all people but most egregiously, by US Americans (note I said "US Americans" as there are other Americans living in this hemisphere - staking claim to the term "American" is another example of self-centered US American attitude).
buying Chinese (or any other third world or close to it) product helps to create higher demand for labor from firms in those countries which, in turn, creates wage increases for these people. no longer can people of these countries sustain themselves on purely agrarian economies. it is proven fact shown in all textbooks on economics and economic development. those people are much worse off than any American and they are no less important.
indeed, there are two sides to the moral highground that is often taken.
sorry, but I don't simply and only care about Americans to the point of choosing one over the other, non American. not in my moral playbook.
further, integration into capitalist lifestyle will likely only foster growth of freedom for those in countries where many freedoms are oppressed.
Follow Ups:
An american obviously and always refers to the U.S. people. Dictionary states it and nonamericans know it. Simple. It's shorthand, thats all.Get used to what the world already knows and does.
yes, protectionism isn't the way. the jobs and and manufacturing will leave regardless.education is key and it's been ignored for years by government. to the point which i don't know if they are actually doing it on purpose. trying to dumb down the public, annihilate the educated middle class. make a society of the haves and the have nots with no in between.
it seems that there are 3 facets of American society with regards to economics. the poor, the middle class and the rich. the rich have their big say in how the country is run, the poor have little say. BUT, a healthy middle class, banded together, have a HUGE say, that ultimately eclipses the rich.
well, if you take away proper education, jobs, health care. couple that with ridiculous core inflation, skyrocketing housing costs and "stagflation" with regards to the job market. all coupled together severely weakens that once vocal middle class.
if you figure in core inflation and housing costs, we are actually making 5 percent less than we were 5 years ago. shit, I'm making more money now, but it's not a huge amount more than in 1998. and gas was $1/GALLON! and housing has nearly tripled in that same time spend. even rents have doubled in that time span. I'm pretty sure that someone with my experience in 1998 would STILL be making the same salary i was back then. pretty damn sure of it!
also, every society has "ditch diggers." i am not saying I'm a fucking genius, but there are all types of intellects across every country. to say that you are going to retrain somebody to be a computer programmer (or whatever you find viable in this new world), is hilarious! so, what are you going to do with these people? you can NOT retrain them to become skilled workers. you seriously need to go to fall river mass. and see that ghost town of a once thriving textile industry. you don't think these people would do ANYTHING to not be dead broke? you don't think they would do anything to provide for their families like when they still had their factory jobs?
what's their only hope? work at Wal-mart or become part of a burgeoning industry. catering to the rich! doggie salons, gourmet pet food bakeries and so on.
you are right, the cost of labor is like a predator. companies will continually search out the cheapest labor. we were there once, then the Japanese, then Hong Kong. all these countries got too expensive with regards to labor. once the workers started amassing wealth, they wanted more. the Chinese know what their American counterparts make. but they know they'll "get theirs' in due time. then labor will go somewhere else. maybe a settled middle east or Africa?
lastly, you say that a healthy Chinese middle class would mean jobs and prosperity for Americans. well, probably on a creative and innovation level. but NOT for the general middle class. bright minds will still come up with the big thing and American advertising agencies will still market the next big thing. but that means nothing for the general middle class in America. or many white collar jobs for that matter.
will a burgeoning Chinese middle class help? yes, it will greatly help the Chinese! so, i'll leave you with this. if you live in america and love your country (and i do), then you WILL care about this issue. because our country is largely financed (at least theoretically) by income tax. if no one is working, if no one is moving ahead financially, then the government can't move ahead either. we stagnate. there's not enough income tax to fund the government, there's not enough people working to fund social security. all our overseas debt does is allow unemployed and underemployed Americans to keep buying their $14.97 Wal-mart DVD players from china.
the housing boom was a farce. Americans have been so brainwashed into accepting debt, they they rode the loan train again and went even deeper in debt. buying house with shaky mortgages, they couldn't afford with money they didn't have. then to take out a line of credit on a house they don't even own (with negative amortization loans) to buy crap they didn't make. why? people our overseas investors are more than happy to help us keep digging our financial grave as long as we keep buying their crap! but we will have to pay the piper some day. and it's GONNA SUCK! and if you're not a billionare it's gonna suck for YOU TOO!
yes...personal debt in this country is a travesty. corporate and CEO greed is a disgrace. employees are devalued by the corporations they work for. even nonprofits burden established cities because they are absolved from paying taxes (and state laws largely support them). people buy tons of crap they didn't make and that they didn't need. our recent military history is plagued with war making that contains little efficacy and costs billions and more importantly, lives and fatherless children. unions absolve educators of all responsibility. the list goes on. and yet I still remain optimistic. and that's the thing I think is fundamentally different about people here. I'm still optimistic.looking at the issue of buying niche audio products, I think that is a minor and likely irrelevant issue to take up. we have to bolster the real industries - steel, auto, air, IT, healthcare products, etc...
if people have to pay $35 for a t-shirt instead of $15, what are the effects?
btw, I live in Pittsburgh - once one of the leading cities that lost it's core industry so I don't think I have to go to New England to know what you are talking about.
regardless, your comments were a great read. i think we both care about what is going on in our country.
often the risk and costs associated with setting up mfg in third world and despotically ruled countries has been high (finding skilled workers, political turmoil, etc...). this has been often understated by protectionists. it has only been recently in our history that a country like China (or India) has become acceptable enough to gain mfg from outside investors.the challenge to a country like the US isn't in how it can protect
(an idea that will result in lost industries as well - examine the US steel industry if you want the best example - what non-steel American firms wanted to buy crappy, expensive steel from US companies? None.).
the challenge is how to continue to build a smart economy dependent upon high tech service jobs and intelligence. there will always be low tech service jobs and "ditch diggers". always. are CEOs greedy? you bet. but there exists no model yet to counter this without eliminating fundamental principals of capitalism (and thus the goose that lays the golden egg).
and when I say "what non steel making firms wanted to buy expensive, crappy, US made steel" I really mean non steel firms *that employ US Americans*
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