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In Reply to: Primaluna, very nice amp! posted by chgolatin2@yahoo.com on February 23, 2007 at 17:30:19:
Manufacturers are pocketing the profits instead of passing along the savings.
Unless you paid $179.99 for it, consider it overpriced.
Unless 30 cents a month is a lot to you.
Follow Ups:
i agree with nightdoggy.I've written about this before. but long ago, manufacturers realized that there are two types of American consumers. one is price conscious and the other is image conscious. both types allow companies to outsource to china.
the price conscious necessitates that products be made in china. how else do you get a $14.97 DVD player from wal-mart?
the second is my serious pet peeve. the image conscious. lets take the fashion industry for example. they don't care that they are paying $300 for a coach backpack when it was made in America. GUESS WHAT? coach makes most of their stuff in china now. guess how much those Chinese backpacks are that every girl pines for?
THAT'S RIGHT, $300!
the manufacturing savings are NOT being passed along to the consumer. at least not to the level that's possible.
and buying a Chinese made $300 backpack plays right into the hands of the manufacture. they can kill off the last American factory job this side of the car company. we are talking about the textile industry. ever seen fall river, mass.? once the epicenter for American textiles, now just and eery ghost town. funny thing is that many of those textile workers have no choice but to go to work at wal-mart selling overseas goods they used to make!
and this is why i won't spend big bucks for anything made in china. not because i have a problem with the Chinese people getting ahead. it's because all it does is allow greedy CEOs to maximize profits like never before, while continuously screwing the American (and european) consumers AND workers.
keep that in mind next time you feel like forking over $9000 for a pair of chinese made Quad ESL-989!
other people. being partnered in life with non US citizen has taught me that.in fact, I loathe the nationalist tendencies shown by all people but most egregiously, by US Americans (note I said "US Americans" as there are other Americans living in this hemisphere - staking claim to the term "American" is another example of self-centered US American attitude).
buying Chinese (or any other third world or close to it) product helps to create higher demand for labor from firms in those countries which, in turn, creates wage increases for these people. no longer can people of these countries sustain themselves on purely agrarian economies. it is proven fact shown in all textbooks on economics and economic development. those people are much worse off than any American and they are no less important.
indeed, there are two sides to the moral highground that is often taken.
sorry, but I don't simply and only care about Americans to the point of choosing one over the other, non American. not in my moral playbook.
further, integration into capitalist lifestyle will likely only foster growth of freedom for those in countries where many freedoms are oppressed.
An american obviously and always refers to the U.S. people. Dictionary states it and nonamericans know it. Simple. It's shorthand, thats all.Get used to what the world already knows and does.
yes, protectionism isn't the way. the jobs and and manufacturing will leave regardless.education is key and it's been ignored for years by government. to the point which i don't know if they are actually doing it on purpose. trying to dumb down the public, annihilate the educated middle class. make a society of the haves and the have nots with no in between.
it seems that there are 3 facets of American society with regards to economics. the poor, the middle class and the rich. the rich have their big say in how the country is run, the poor have little say. BUT, a healthy middle class, banded together, have a HUGE say, that ultimately eclipses the rich.
well, if you take away proper education, jobs, health care. couple that with ridiculous core inflation, skyrocketing housing costs and "stagflation" with regards to the job market. all coupled together severely weakens that once vocal middle class.
if you figure in core inflation and housing costs, we are actually making 5 percent less than we were 5 years ago. shit, I'm making more money now, but it's not a huge amount more than in 1998. and gas was $1/GALLON! and housing has nearly tripled in that same time spend. even rents have doubled in that time span. I'm pretty sure that someone with my experience in 1998 would STILL be making the same salary i was back then. pretty damn sure of it!
also, every society has "ditch diggers." i am not saying I'm a fucking genius, but there are all types of intellects across every country. to say that you are going to retrain somebody to be a computer programmer (or whatever you find viable in this new world), is hilarious! so, what are you going to do with these people? you can NOT retrain them to become skilled workers. you seriously need to go to fall river mass. and see that ghost town of a once thriving textile industry. you don't think these people would do ANYTHING to not be dead broke? you don't think they would do anything to provide for their families like when they still had their factory jobs?
what's their only hope? work at Wal-mart or become part of a burgeoning industry. catering to the rich! doggie salons, gourmet pet food bakeries and so on.
you are right, the cost of labor is like a predator. companies will continually search out the cheapest labor. we were there once, then the Japanese, then Hong Kong. all these countries got too expensive with regards to labor. once the workers started amassing wealth, they wanted more. the Chinese know what their American counterparts make. but they know they'll "get theirs' in due time. then labor will go somewhere else. maybe a settled middle east or Africa?
lastly, you say that a healthy Chinese middle class would mean jobs and prosperity for Americans. well, probably on a creative and innovation level. but NOT for the general middle class. bright minds will still come up with the big thing and American advertising agencies will still market the next big thing. but that means nothing for the general middle class in America. or many white collar jobs for that matter.
will a burgeoning Chinese middle class help? yes, it will greatly help the Chinese! so, i'll leave you with this. if you live in america and love your country (and i do), then you WILL care about this issue. because our country is largely financed (at least theoretically) by income tax. if no one is working, if no one is moving ahead financially, then the government can't move ahead either. we stagnate. there's not enough income tax to fund the government, there's not enough people working to fund social security. all our overseas debt does is allow unemployed and underemployed Americans to keep buying their $14.97 Wal-mart DVD players from china.
the housing boom was a farce. Americans have been so brainwashed into accepting debt, they they rode the loan train again and went even deeper in debt. buying house with shaky mortgages, they couldn't afford with money they didn't have. then to take out a line of credit on a house they don't even own (with negative amortization loans) to buy crap they didn't make. why? people our overseas investors are more than happy to help us keep digging our financial grave as long as we keep buying their crap! but we will have to pay the piper some day. and it's GONNA SUCK! and if you're not a billionare it's gonna suck for YOU TOO!
yes...personal debt in this country is a travesty. corporate and CEO greed is a disgrace. employees are devalued by the corporations they work for. even nonprofits burden established cities because they are absolved from paying taxes (and state laws largely support them). people buy tons of crap they didn't make and that they didn't need. our recent military history is plagued with war making that contains little efficacy and costs billions and more importantly, lives and fatherless children. unions absolve educators of all responsibility. the list goes on. and yet I still remain optimistic. and that's the thing I think is fundamentally different about people here. I'm still optimistic.looking at the issue of buying niche audio products, I think that is a minor and likely irrelevant issue to take up. we have to bolster the real industries - steel, auto, air, IT, healthcare products, etc...
if people have to pay $35 for a t-shirt instead of $15, what are the effects?
btw, I live in Pittsburgh - once one of the leading cities that lost it's core industry so I don't think I have to go to New England to know what you are talking about.
regardless, your comments were a great read. i think we both care about what is going on in our country.
often the risk and costs associated with setting up mfg in third world and despotically ruled countries has been high (finding skilled workers, political turmoil, etc...). this has been often understated by protectionists. it has only been recently in our history that a country like China (or India) has become acceptable enough to gain mfg from outside investors.the challenge to a country like the US isn't in how it can protect
(an idea that will result in lost industries as well - examine the US steel industry if you want the best example - what non-steel American firms wanted to buy crappy, expensive steel from US companies? None.).
the challenge is how to continue to build a smart economy dependent upon high tech service jobs and intelligence. there will always be low tech service jobs and "ditch diggers". always. are CEOs greedy? you bet. but there exists no model yet to counter this without eliminating fundamental principals of capitalism (and thus the goose that lays the golden egg).
and when I say "what non steel making firms wanted to buy expensive, crappy, US made steel" I really mean non steel firms *that employ US Americans*
.
i used to work for a company with factories in china. went there on business for two weeks in 2003. what lovely people! i do wish they are able to achieve all the success they deserve, but it is a very oppressive government. and many people just live in daily fear.
Chinese gear will lose whatever resale value It had.
NT
up to the VR4 or 5 I believe
Von Schweikert isn't the only one. Nor are speakers the only components.
Audio equipment is very much a niche, low volume product area. Only passionate people begin audio companies and most usually do not get rich either. I'd love to work for an audio manufacturer. It would not even feel like work to me.
I'm noticing that gear sourced from China is now almost as expensive as some of the best, mid-priced American made gear. Shanling and Jungson are examples. A few years back a music lover/audiophile could get a lot of bang for the buck by buying something built in China. Keep in mind that I'm talking about tube gear mostly. Although someone on a tight budget or starting out who prefers solid state can do well with China built NAD and its competitors. That gear is still bargain priced.
Hey look everybody has to survive and if that audio company owner decides to build in China and keep prices high, pocketing greater profits then so be it. But there's more to it and I realize that.
Recently I bought a tube line stage and two tube power amps. They were bargain priced, are beautifully built and made in the USA to boot. I'm proud to own them and think they are great.
If given a choice I will pay a little more for an American made product. I admit there is a limit, however. I'm disabled and hardly a wealthy guy!
nightdoggy,His point is that he liked the amp, regardless of where it's made. Just because economics create a situation where a worker doesn't get paid as much for assembling the amp as their western counterpart doesn't mean that the amp's not worth what he paid for it. Just how much do you know how this skilled worker lives? Just because he doesn't make an absorbent amount of money by western standards doesn't mean he doesn't make a very good living by eastern standards. Do you think for a second he might be very proud of his contribution to his company? In the end, you would not be saying what you said if the amp wasn't Chinese origin. Admit it, you just can't stand that the Chinese are doing better and better at building hi-end audio equipment. It would not surprise me that the Chinese will surpass many if not all western audio companies in the next decade. Of course, no western audio magazine, especially American ones, will give them that kind of press. Afterall, we gotta protect our own, right? I say, let whoever in this world try to build the best audio equipment and I will buy from them if I can afford them. Just wait till the Koreans and Indians (Eastern) get into the game, and twenty years from now, the Mexicans. The world's always changing, there'll be always be a next top dog.
world powers have always changed though out history. from Sumeria to Egypt to Greece to Rome to....our time will come. BUT, to sit back and get blindsided like the British in the late 70's/early 80's is not something I'm eager to experience.
we as Americans have been challenged in the past. remember the "japan scare" in the 1960's? thing is we always came back through innovation. not sure we are doing that now.
the last big rush of American innovation came in the late 1990's with the tech boom. one of the byproducts was affordable high speed. which allowed off shoring of the American and European white collar jobs. many being the jobs that created the technology in the first place.
you are right. as of now the Chinese are definitely more hungry than we are. and we will get trumped. we have SO MUCH overseas debt to Asia. wanna know why? because those countries are more than willing to finance our debt so long as American consumers keep buying their stuff!
all it takes is for china, japan and others to decide it's time to collect on their debts and our country is SCREWED!
yes, times change. but don't tell me you don't think it's a big deal that your country is financially fucked in the next 25 years. unless you are a billionaire, you are gonna be in a world of hurt given our national debt level and the state of social security as the baby boomers start retiring in droves.
true, you don't want to rely on social security as you sole income, but MILLIONS are going to have to. our national savings rate is NEGATIVE 1 PERCENT!
My point was that components of Chinese origin are overpriced. Yes, overpriced. Distributors are not passing the savings along to consumers. They're getting rich. Not dealers, not consumers.
Of course the Chinese are very capable of producing quality audio components. It's hardly rocket science as they say.
There are things lost to the consumer who buys China sourced high end audio components. One is readily available replacement parts. Another is Service Manuals which until now were considered an essential part of a product introduction and support cycle. Another is long term value and resale value. For these reasons you will not see Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson, Krell and other top shelf products for sale in Wal-Mart.
Nightdoggy,Oh, and I suppose buying Mark Levinsons and krells make you feel better because you think their distributors are handing you a bargain! Yeah right, it's all about making money. So you mean to tell me that a Chinese origin amplifier of equal performance to that of an American brand can not charge the same amount of money just because it's made in China? For now maybe because these companies are breaking into the field and want to increase customer buildup by offering lower prices, but soon, the prices will level out. And it is "rocket science" to build hi-end equipment or else you and I would be building them in our garage, let's not belittle these great engineers. The reason you do not see Krells selling at WalMart is not because they have manuals and replacement parts, both of which higher end Chinese companies such as Cayin, Consonance, and Melody do have, but because the average American audio equipment buyer is not going to paid the exorbitant (read: rip off) prices Krell, Audio Research, and CJ are charging! Oh wait, it's American made so it's got to be worth that much! HA! Not to mention the majority of WalMart shoppers would not know or care about our hobby and think we're all nuts to pay thousands of dollars for an amp. Oh, and those "distributors" you're referring to ... they're Americans! So your next door neighbor happens to make a buck and can afford to pay his mortgage, more power to him. If it pays your bills, you would too. Bottom line is, the Chinese stuff is still cheaper than American stuff and they last longer than you give it credit for. The parts are not crap, many actually use high grade parts that are readily replaceable. The products last longer than the normal warranty of a year (no shorter than their western counterparts), at which time, if any parts fail, you'd either send it back to the manufacturer (no big deal to send it to an U.S. distributer or even back to China, it only takes a week by air at MOST) or get some new parts and have it modded here. Not all Chinese audio products come without manuals and use inferior parts, the consumer still need to do his homework, but to lump ALL Chinese equipment into that category is just ignorant and prejudiced.
You make valid points. Prices will level out. I do think there are overpriced components out there. Perhaps those companies will move offshore or not survive. But the cost of living and manufacturing is skyrocketing in the U.S.
When I started out in audio 1972, there were 300 Yen to the dollar. Japanese equipment was a bargain and sold for much less than Fisher, Marantz, Scott and Sherwood. Now with 106 Yen to the dollar Japanese components are harder to find. Japanese high end is no longer sold here, except for Accuphase.
I buy products made in every corner of the world. If given the choice, however, I'll pay a little more to buy American. It makes me feel good. It does not make me richer.
Recently I purchased a Rogue power amp, a Quicksilver pre and two Quicksilver monoblocks. They are a good deal and perform well.
I admit that two early Chinese components I bought left a bad taste in my mouth (ASL and Jolida). Their quality is far better now, I know.
Global economics is a complex affair. Do what works for you. You have to survive too. I do not judge people. If you knew what my life has been like, you'd understand why.
Have fun with audio to enhance your love of music. That is all I try to do.
Aren't most of "American" product sourced to China and other eastern parts of the country? Wow, I didnt meant to post a thread about something that I thought was nice sounding, compared to many other "American" brands which dont sound quite the same but they are built here in "Amercian" soil. I have served my country in the U.S. Air Force and the U.S Army 82nd Airborne division did 2 overseas tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, also, did the blacks, asians, and latinos. Does it mean that they are not worthy of the their credit and sacrifice?Just because I viewed something, tested it and auditioned it and even liked it better than my "American" gear does it really mean that the "Chinese" "German" and whomever pleases to make good affordable and outstanding quality high end doesnt deserve their do credit? C'mon people lets stop this ignorance and prejudiced way of thinking.
Just because you can afford super high end gear, or pay the most for your stereo does it really, really mean that you have the "Best sounding system? Dont think so and if you do, well thats your opinion!
This is all a hobby and a passion plain and simple it is not about who has the best or who can afford the most "game" I've seen system that are considered "Budget" 5k to 10k that blow away many, many high end super expensive stereo's. I have spent over 9k on my system but I am not "RICH" by any means, just a blue collar worker providing my services to the City of Chicago as a Firefighter saving lives...
and now I "get" your moniker...one of the differences you heard in the two amps was the different kinds of tubes and circuitry application.
Larry
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