RE: Henry...suggest you discontinue arguing with Stu, and...

Posted by op48no1 on May 3, 2012 at 14:36:47

In Reply to: Henry...suggest you discontinue arguing with Stu, and... posted by Minussss3db on May 2, 2012 at 22:27:18:

Thanks for the notes. Again, a lot of misunderstanding here.

1) Galileo was a scientist. His conflict with the church pitted him against the religious and political establishment who had a powerful incentive to stop the spread of science and reason. Same thing today, when much of the hi-fi industry depends on keeping people from thinking clearly about the value of what they're buying. In this analogy, I am Galileo and the hi-fi tweakers represent the church. The flat-earthers were the ones saying, "Don't think! Trust your senses: the ground is flat and the sun circles the earth!"

2) I keep saying (and I'll say it again) that I'm not declaring the claimed effects are "impossible." Anyone who thinks I said that isn't reading what I've written. What I have said is that the burden is on the people making claims to provide the proof. The burden is not on the audience to prove the claimants wrong.

3) Science is by nature an adversarial process. Scientists propose hypotheses and publish experimental results to justify them. The scientific community's job is to try to shoot holes in the research. It's a process of trial by fire. Good experiments get duplicated and validated. Bad ideas get trashed, or evolve and are reborn to start the process again. The fact that many scientists are skeptical of new theories that are eventually proven out does not mean the scientists were fools, or that the process of science doesn't work. The same is true when accepted scientific theories are forced to change in the face of new research. This is all part of the process.

4) There is way too much valid scientific data showing how fallible human hearing is for me ever to accept at face value that just because one or a bunch of audiophiles "heard" something that this means the "something" they heard was real and not an artifact created in their heads. Do some studying on the topic of psychoacoustics and blind testing methodologies and you'll see what I mean. There is a hell of a lot of neural processing going on in the auditory part of your brain, and it's just naive to think that conscious and subconscious biases don't affect perception.

5) I'm not criticising Stu for saying that black insulated wire sounds different. I'm questioning the engineering explanation he's given us to try to substantiate his claim. His technical reasoning is insufficient to prove the case.

All this makes me think of arguments about evolution I've read on news sites and discussion boards. The creationists like to say that science is just an atheist religion as though this proves the whole issue is purely a question of philosophical relativism. And therefore, belief in science is just another kind of "faith" that is no more valid than religious faith. This is all bunk. There are fundamental, deep philosophical differences between science and religion. If this isn't clear to you, you also need to spend some time reading about the philosophy of science.

Finally, the idea that asking for explanations of surprising claims is somehow wrong is just totally backwards, IMHO. If what you are saying is that all perceptions are valid, and that any lay technical speculation based on subjective observation must be accepted as true by default, then I have a big, fat spaghetti monster to sell you...

(If you don't know what the Flying Spaghetti Monster is, then you can add that to your research list.)

-Henry

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Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - Audibility of group delay - op48no1 07:44:53 04/28/12 (63)

Insulation color - TimFox 15:58:03 05/02/12 (16)

A couple of additional thoughts... - Steve O 19:14:19 05/02/12 (12)

black zip ties - rage 11:54:36 05/03/12 (11)

RE: black zip ties - deathtube 667 13:53:10 05/03/12 (9)

RE: black zip ties - rage 17:42:40 05/03/12 (0)

RE: black zip ties - GEO 16:00:14 05/03/12 (6)

RE: black zip ties - deathtube 667 16:18:23 05/03/12 (5)

RE: black zip ties - GEO 06:45:52 05/04/12 (4)

RE: black zip ties - deathtube 667 08:24:38 05/04/12 (3)

RE: black zip ties - GEO 09:53:36 05/04/12 (2)

RE: black zip ties - drlowmu 16:05:45 05/05/12 (0)

RE: black zip ties - deathtube 667 10:36:20 05/04/12 (0)

Kool-Aid - op48no1 14:38:33 05/03/12 (0)

RE: black zip ties - Palustris 12:59:34 05/03/12 (0)

The root of the issue... - gusser 18:42:14 05/02/12 (0)

RE: Insulation color - op48no1 17:32:55 05/02/12 (1)

RE: Insulation color - TimFox 10:43:04 05/04/12 (0)

RE: Audibility of group delay - unclestu 15:45:32 05/01/12 (22)

RE: Audibility of group delay - Palustris 11:08:49 05/02/12 (20)

Try changing - unclestu 12:50:06 05/02/12 (19)

RE: Try changing - op48no1 13:46:43 05/02/12 (18)

Are you stating - unclestu 14:51:43 05/02/12 (17)

RE: Are you stating - op48no1 17:31:53 05/02/12 (11)

OK - unclestu 18:09:24 05/02/12 (10)

RE: OK - op48no1 19:54:50 05/02/12 (9)

Pearls before swine - Ray Moth 17:24:50 05/05/12 (0)

Henry...suggest you discontinue arguing with Stu, and... - Minussss3db 22:27:18 05/02/12 (7)

RE: Henry...suggest you discontinue arguing with Stu, and... - op48no1 14:36:47 05/03/12 (1)

RE: Henry...suggest you discontinue arguing with Stu, and... - Minussss3db 08:16:54 05/04/12 (0)

Actually Henry I am being a little harsh... - Minussss3db 22:49:04 05/02/12 (4)

Wrong Order! - gusser 09:37:49 05/03/12 (2)

Actually 1 of 5, and 1 of 8 always go together - Minussss3db 07:50:38 05/04/12 (1)

I don't listen? - gusser 10:11:10 05/04/12 (0)

RE: Actually Henry I am being a little harsh... - GEO 06:26:19 05/03/12 (0)

Kimber Kable Riddle: - gusser 15:46:20 05/02/12 (4)

Examine - unclestu 16:03:06 05/02/12 (3)

But you said... - gusser 16:08:24 05/02/12 (2)

I could - unclestu 17:50:57 05/02/12 (1)

Engineers don't think like salesmen! - RPMac 14:14:19 05/03/12 (0)

RE: Audibility of group delay - op48no1 10:02:24 05/02/12 (0)

RE: Audibility of group delay - 6AS7_6SN7 02:02:14 05/01/12 (0)

RE: Audibility of group delay - TimFox 15:21:56 04/29/12 (3)

Coaxial Cable - Triode_Kingdom 19:43:23 04/29/12 (1)

RE: Coaxial Cable - TimFox 05:10:58 04/30/12 (0)

RE: Audibility of group delay - op48no1 15:30:46 04/29/12 (0)

Transversal Filters - gusser 10:20:33 04/29/12 (2)

RE: Transversal Filters - rage 12:38:58 04/30/12 (1)

RE: Transversal Filters - gusser 16:42:51 04/30/12 (0)

RE: Audibility of group delay - dave slagle 21:43:35 04/28/12 (10)

Thanks for this Dave....one of the best (finally) posts on this - Minussss3db 23:54:21 05/01/12 (0)

"Why not simply check the dielectric and mechanical properties of the various wire insulations?" - Chris O 08:56:42 04/29/12 (1)

RE: "Why not simply check the dielectric and mechanical properties of the various wire insulations?" - FenderLover 09:18:03 04/29/12 (0)

RE: Audibility of group delay - Eli Duttman 06:53:15 04/29/12 (0)

RE: Audibility of group delay - Triode_Kingdom 22:45:29 04/28/12 (5)

RE: Audibility of group delay - casouza 22:02:35 05/01/12 (1)

RE: Audibility of group delay - gusser 10:03:50 05/02/12 (0)

You left out the punch line... - Lew 17:56:23 04/30/12 (0)

RE: Audibility of group delay - Eli Duttman 07:08:22 04/29/12 (1)

RE: Audibility of group delay - Stuben 15:22:22 05/02/12 (0)

RE: Audibility of group delay - Chris O 08:16:49 04/28/12 (3)

RE: Audibility of group delay - op48no1 17:18:12 04/28/12 (2)

RE: Audibility of group delay - Chris O 17:33:48 04/28/12 (1)

RE: Audibility of group delay - op48no1 17:54:21 04/28/12 (0)

Follow Ups

RE: Henry...suggest you discontinue arguing with Stu, and... - op48no1 14:36:47 05/03/12 (1)

RE: Henry...suggest you discontinue arguing with Stu, and... - Minussss3db 08:16:54 05/04/12 (0)

RE: Henry...suggest you discontinue arguing with Stu, and...

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