In Reply to: RE: Ignore the doubters! posted by Garg0yle on September 20, 2015 at 09:27:18:
I am not simply rabble rousing, although I may belong in the lounge at DiyA on the subject of science! There is some crazy thuggish groupthink on some forums, although AA is more open minded as are many on DiyA, which is why I occasionally pop in.
This is an area I have spent my life studying. Tens of thousands of hours, 35 semesters in university, 100s of books, tons of audio gear, and more interaction with working audio people worldwide than most can claim.
So if you want to believe in trendy in-group buzzwords from an audio forum over me, go ahead. No skin off my nose.
Ask Dave Slagle to tell you the story where he intentionally reversed the direction of one wire in a batch of coils he made for Pierre Sprey at Mapleshade, without telling them...and they caught it!
I first heard about directionality of wires from Pierre 20 years ago. I have no doubt that the worked hard to develop this acuity and he seems to be consistent in his ability to identify it.
Pierre's design partner was/is? an actual working physicist in a top government research facility, by the way,
Personally, I don't worry about this and I will never put a wood chip on a transformer. I have bigger problems than these.
When I discuss science and its role in knowledge systems, I am speaking from a position of a reasonable level of education and understanding. And decades of fieldwork observing audiophiles and their work.
Empirically-based, experimental studies such as that undertaken by the OP can yield a useful body of practical knowledge. Moreso than abstract physics discussions in absence of any direct experience, I would venture.
It's a complicated world out there, especially when music listening is the subject and goal.
We can "know that" something works without "knowing how" something works. Most of our knowledge is like that.
When I read the OPs post, it seems he came a long way from zero, with a lot of work and found out a lot of very useful and valid ideas.
So, I think I'm doing y'all a favor by cautioning against sweeping generalizations to specific cases built on words on a page or screen.
You just don't appreciate it yet.
Listen, the role of a "model." which is what the textbook case is, is to compare it to reality and look for differences and gaps...and, if found, you adjust the model! Not the other way around.
In this case, music amplification, I think it is reasonable that listening experience should be included.
Why do you think I am on audio forums talking about this? If I want to fight, I can go have it out with my insane neighbor.
PS--And I would exercise double caution in making "scientific" claims about human music listening, because this isn't a science and never will be. Electronics is a science, if far more complex than electronics 101 would have one believe, but what people do with it is not.
What I react to is using bogus notions like "expectation bias" as a priori shoot-downs. This is something that needs to be proven in specific cases, even if you buy the theoretical reasoning, which I do not in the form it is given.
Isn't it the case that a generalized belief in expectation bias is itself an expectation bias? Think about it.
Anyway, I'm happy to share some of my hard-earned academic knowledge and save y'all $250k in Ivy League tuition.
I support what the OP is doing and congratulate him on his work, even if, as I plainly stated, I personally don't buy some of it. How can I say he is "wrong" if it is right for him. I'll bet that system sounds really good!
BTW, my good friend Nanana has also studied philosophy of science and the human sciences so he would be generally in agreement with me.
I'm just trying to hip you all to major trends in 20th century intellectual history that are being completely bypassed in most audio discussions I encounter, especially the ones that purport to be "serious."
Read my sig and have a nice day.
------------------------------
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein
Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic
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Follow Ups
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Joe Roberts 10:23:09 09/20/15 (160)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - pictureguy 23:56:24 09/21/15 (81)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Joe Roberts 06:17:32 09/22/15 (80)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - pictureguy 09:29:24 09/22/15 (1)
- Stats - Joe Roberts 09:54:25 09/22/15 (0)
- I don't understand your argument! - gusser 08:29:13 09/22/15 (67)
- Try this one - Joe Roberts 08:45:13 09/22/15 (66)
- RE: Try this one - gusser 10:34:39 09/22/15 (65)
- Education and growth - Joe Roberts 12:01:43 09/22/15 (63)
- RE: Dr. Bae - gusser 12:57:14 09/22/15 (1)
- RE: Dr. Bae - Joe Roberts 13:43:18 09/22/15 (0)
- RE: Education and growth - gusser 12:31:47 09/22/15 (60)
- Just to be clear, Gusser... aned a final comment - Joe Roberts 14:28:55 09/22/15 (50)
- RE: Just to be clear, Gusser... aned a final comment - gusser 15:45:22 09/22/15 (49)
- My charmed existence - Joe Roberts 06:41:06 09/29/15 (48)
- RE: My charmed existence - gusser 11:52:16 10/01/15 (47)
- RE: My charmed existence - Joe Roberts 07:28:28 10/02/15 (46)
- RE: My charmed existence - gusser 08:26:56 10/02/15 (45)
- Ultimately... - PakProtector 08:46:24 10/02/15 (44)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 10:46:35 10/02/15 (43)
- RE: Ultimately... - cpotl 17:33:40 10/02/15 (26)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 10:49:35 10/04/15 (0)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 21:40:37 10/02/15 (24)
- RE: Ultimately... - cpotl 20:40:55 10/03/15 (23)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 05:32:39 10/04/15 (22)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 11:03:01 10/04/15 (21)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 12:50:44 10/04/15 (1)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 13:08:34 10/04/15 (0)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 12:43:08 10/04/15 (18)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 13:04:45 10/04/15 (17)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 13:34:40 10/04/15 (16)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 16:29:52 10/04/15 (1)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 20:52:22 10/04/15 (0)
- RE: Ultimately... - cpotl 16:00:51 10/04/15 (13)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 20:47:40 10/04/15 (12)
- RE: Ultimately... - cpotl 03:22:49 10/05/15 (11)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 09:48:41 10/05/15 (10)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 09:59:50 10/05/15 (9)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 10:48:54 10/05/15 (8)
- RE: Ultimately... - Tre' 12:06:17 10/05/15 (6)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 12:44:05 10/05/15 (5)
- RE: Ultimately... - Tre' 13:41:51 10/05/15 (4)
- RE: Ultimately... - aknaydenov 00:16:13 10/06/15 (3)
- You are right. - Tre' 07:33:46 10/06/15 (2)
- RE: You are right. - aknaydenov 03:02:00 10/10/15 (1)
- RE: You are right. - Tre' 13:03:35 10/10/15 (0)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 11:02:55 10/05/15 (0)
- RE: Ultimately... - Geary Lyons 14:03:28 10/02/15 (15)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 14:26:41 10/02/15 (14)
- RE: Ultimately... - Geary Lyons 15:12:48 10/02/15 (13)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 15:27:41 10/02/15 (12)
- RE: Ultimately... - Geary Lyons 16:03:38 10/02/15 (11)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 16:23:06 10/02/15 (10)
- RE: Ultimately... - Geary Lyons 16:55:17 10/02/15 (9)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 17:06:49 10/02/15 (8)
- RE: Ultimately... - Geary Lyons 21:34:11 10/02/15 (7)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 10:54:11 10/04/15 (6)
- RE: Ultimately... - Geary Lyons 18:15:10 10/04/15 (5)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 19:16:30 10/04/15 (4)
- RE: Ultimately... - Geary Lyons 20:59:25 10/04/15 (3)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 21:05:30 10/04/15 (2)
- RE: Ultimately... - Geary Lyons 12:19:10 10/05/15 (1)
- RE: Ultimately... - gusser 13:03:10 10/05/15 (0)
- RE: Education and growth - Joe Roberts 13:44:52 09/22/15 (8)
- RE: Education and growth - gusser 14:06:47 09/22/15 (7)
- RE: Education and growth - Joe Roberts 14:40:37 09/22/15 (6)
- But for the Nth time... - gusser 15:38:21 09/22/15 (5)
- RE: But for the Nth time... - aknaydenov 23:36:39 09/22/15 (4)
- RE: But for the Nth time... - gusser 10:20:59 09/23/15 (2)
- RE: But for the Nth time... - Garg0yle 14:26:46 09/23/15 (1)
- RE: But for the Nth time... - aknaydenov 08:06:35 09/24/15 (0)
- RE: But for the Nth time... - cpotl 02:47:51 09/23/15 (0)
- RE: Try this one - aknaydenov 11:11:51 09/22/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - cpotl 06:44:53 09/22/15 (9)
- How else can that be tested, if not by double-blind listening experiments" Flawed... I don't listen to music.. - Cleantimestream 13:19:05 09/29/15 (0)
- Variability and context - Joe Roberts 08:16:49 09/22/15 (5)
- RE: Variability and context - cpotl 15:49:00 09/22/15 (4)
- RE: Variability and context--Key point - Joe Roberts 05:58:08 09/29/15 (3)
- RE: Variability and context--Key point - cpotl 07:21:08 10/02/15 (2)
- RE: Variability and context--Key point - Joe Roberts 08:06:20 10/02/15 (1)
- RE: Variability and context--Key point - cpotl 08:49:53 10/02/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - aknaydenov 07:54:39 09/22/15 (1)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - gusser 08:35:26 09/22/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - FlyCast 17:39:11 09/21/15 (1)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Joe Roberts 06:02:01 09/22/15 (0)
- Hello Joe!... always a distinct pleasure when you stop by~nT - Cleantimestream 14:44:28 09/21/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - gusser 12:57:21 09/21/15 (12)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Joe Roberts 13:14:52 09/21/15 (11)
- OK, forget video (TV)! - gusser 13:28:37 09/21/15 (10)
- RE: OK, forget video (TV)! - Joe Roberts 14:34:03 09/21/15 (9)
- RE: OK, forget video (TV)! - gusser 14:51:19 09/21/15 (8)
- RE: OK, forget video (TV)! - Joe Roberts 06:43:22 09/22/15 (7)
- You miss the point again! - gusser 08:16:21 09/22/15 (6)
- RE: You miss the point again! - Joe Roberts 08:32:10 09/22/15 (5)
- RE: You miss the point again! - gusser 08:45:07 09/22/15 (4)
- RE: You miss the point again! - Joe Roberts 09:13:55 09/22/15 (3)
- I am not endorsing DBT's! - gusser 10:36:48 09/22/15 (0)
- RE: You miss the point again! - aknaydenov 09:51:37 09/22/15 (1)
- RE: You miss the point again! - Joe Roberts 09:57:36 09/22/15 (0)
- Confirmation biases should be acknowledged when ever we design. - Kloss 05:44:22 09/21/15 (1)
- Totally Agree - MannyE 21:13:58 09/21/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - aknaydenov 11:00:01 09/20/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Garg0yle 10:57:11 09/20/15 (58)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - dave slagle 21:33:43 09/20/15 (10)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - mqracing 12:46:46 09/21/15 (1)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - dave slagle 06:50:37 09/22/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Garg0yle 21:58:27 09/20/15 (7)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - dave slagle 07:26:02 09/21/15 (6)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - mqracing 02:40:00 09/23/15 (2)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - dave slagle 05:38:28 09/23/15 (1)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - mqracing 09:32:27 09/23/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - mqracing 14:06:42 09/21/15 (2)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - tube wrangler 21:13:23 10/08/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - dave slagle 07:36:29 09/22/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Joe Roberts 11:19:13 09/20/15 (46)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Garg0yle 11:29:44 09/20/15 (45)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - gusser 14:00:40 09/21/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Joe Roberts 12:31:34 09/20/15 (42)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - cpotl 16:53:38 09/20/15 (39)
- Drawing the line - Joe Roberts 21:56:43 09/20/15 (38)
- MapleShade? - gusser 14:30:47 09/21/15 (27)
- RE: MapleShade? - Joe Roberts 14:35:48 09/21/15 (26)
- RE: MapleShade? - gusser 14:41:37 09/21/15 (25)
- Im going to report this to the CPSC! - gusser 16:31:32 09/21/15 (24)
- RE: Im going to report this to the CPSC! - danlaudionut 19:57:39 09/21/15 (23)
- You are free to: - gusser 22:16:49 09/21/15 (12)
- RE: You are free to: - danlaudionut 22:37:18 09/21/15 (11)
- er Dan?... it IS the hubris that.allows one to take that position. Freedom demands responsibility-nT - Cleantimestream 08:34:01 10/01/15 (0)
- RE: You are free to: - gusser 22:45:55 09/21/15 (9)
- RE: You are free to: - danlaudionut 23:01:22 09/21/15 (8)
- I don't see any porcelain around those prongs! - gusser 23:05:31 09/21/15 (7)
- RE: I don't see any porcelain around those prongs! - aknaydenov 23:23:35 09/21/15 (6)
- This is not about your amp! - gusser 23:28:30 09/21/15 (5)
- RE: This is not about your amp! - danlaudionut 04:11:30 09/22/15 (4)
- RE: This is not about your amp! - Garg0yle 06:21:57 09/22/15 (0)
- RE: This is not about your amp! - Joe Roberts 05:52:00 09/22/15 (2)
- These are well made a crazy affordable - Kloss 06:11:49 09/24/15 (1)
- Yup! That's all you need (nt) - gusser 13:04:00 09/24/15 (0)
- RE: Im going to report this to the CPSC! - Garg0yle 20:29:47 09/21/15 (9)
- RE: Im going to report this to the CPSC! - danlaudionut 21:02:58 09/21/15 (8)
- RE: Im going to report this to the CPSC! - gusser 22:35:56 09/21/15 (7)
- RE: Im going to report this to the CPSC! - danlaudionut 22:44:35 09/21/15 (6)
- So I'll ask again: - gusser 22:51:45 09/21/15 (5)
- RE: So I'll ask again: - danlaudionut 04:23:52 09/22/15 (4)
- RE: Sounds a lot like socialism Dan - deafbykhorns 10:11:50 10/01/15 (0)
- RE: UL Police - deafbykhorns 10:09:03 10/01/15 (0)
- RE: So I'll ask again: - Geary Lyons 16:57:34 09/30/15 (0)
- RE: So I'll ask again: - gusser 11:09:33 09/22/15 (0)
- RE: Drawing the line - dave slagle 07:53:54 09/21/15 (9)
- RE: Drawing the line - cpotl 09:04:08 09/21/15 (4)
- RE: Drawing the line - dave slagle 09:26:44 09/21/15 (3)
- RE: Drawing the line - cpotl 09:41:29 09/21/15 (2)
- RE: Drawing the line - dave slagle 09:52:16 09/21/15 (1)
- RE: Drawing the line - cpotl 11:20:43 09/21/15 (0)
- RE: Drawing the line - megasat16 09:00:18 09/21/15 (2)
- RE: Drawing the line - aknaydenov 23:21:30 09/21/15 (1)
- RE: Drawing the line - FlyCast 05:13:59 09/22/15 (0)
- RE: Drawing the line - Joe Roberts 08:49:45 09/21/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Garg0yle 16:43:25 09/20/15 (1)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - Joe Roberts 06:14:10 09/21/15 (0)
- RE: Ignore the doubters! - aknaydenov 11:34:53 09/20/15 (0)