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Re: Oh one other thing Andy_C

"That was not the question I asked, I wanted to know how you used equalization to achieve the same target curve."

And I told you, I set a target curve in the device and let it work until it achieved the target. Obviously you have never used one of these devices before or you wouldn't ask such silly questions.

"I am interested in a more complete answer than what you have provided. How did you equalizee the FRs of the different amplifiers to the same target curve. There is not much in your post to respond to until you provide a more complete answer to my question."

There is no more complete answer. I used a digital equalizer, I set a target curve in the device and let it correct the room response to that target curve. There really isn't anymore to say than that. It doesn't matter to the equalizer what amp is attached it keeps adjusting parameters until the target is met.


"Unlike you, I have an easily accessible up-to-date system profile, I suggest you read it before mouthing off, afterall I note that you used andy_c's system profile as a platform to further push your misguided preconceived notions."

Thanks for (indirectly) answering my question. You have no room correction. THerefore, I can only conclude that you don't take the issue seriously and you like to hear your lips flapping.

I will repeat, you have a problem with reading comprehension. You obviously don't know what a preconceived notion is.

Here is a definition for you...maybe it will help but I doubt it:

an opinion formed beforehand without adequate evidence

1) I have reached my opinion after many years of owning and listening with many different amplifiers. So I can't really have reached my opinion beforehand now could I? This is especially true in light of the fact that I started, like nearly everyone else in my age range with SS amps like a humble Sony receiver up through decent SS integrated amps from the likes of Onkyo, then to old hifi gear like Hafler and Sumo, later to better SS like Simaudio, then to tubes, then to amps with no feedback and hybrids, then to OTLs, then to hybrid no feedback SETs. So, nothing preconceived about it. All empirical. Along the way I learned how they worked and what different design parameters did. This is called experience.

2) The evidence is from my listening experience and from papers I have found that give support to what I am hearing. I found these papers AFTER I had reached my current thinking that this kind of sound is more correct. The rationale behind why is interesting to me but by no means the decider if I like or dislike a certain technology. That comes from listening. Just like I would say there are one or two Class D amps (but of the true digital kind like TACT or Sharp) that sound pretty good so I can't condemn the whole concept. However; the majority of them sound not good so I would say that the implementation is seriously flawed in most cases. Even so, the best of that technology pales in front of seriously good tube and hybrid in my listening experience.

So, in conclusion, you can stop with the preconceived shit because it doesn't wash here. You on the other hand, are likely to dismiss an amp out of hand because you don't like its measurments, right? If that is the case then it is you who has preconceived notions about what the measurements mean regarding sound quality. It measures bad so it must sound bad, isn't that what you think? You are biased and worse, so blinded that you call others biased when it is really you who is.

"I was referring to SPEAKER FR variations due to differing amplifier output impedance though on further reflection amplifier FR variation itself is also an issue, though it's effect should be more consistent in various speakers.
"

Can't you write an NON convoluted sentence? I know exactly what you are referring to. However; FR of the amp is almost solely dependent on the load it is attached to so the things here you try to separate are really the same thing. Almost all amps measure flat into a purely resistive load. So if by some miracle a speaker is nearly resistive (actually Apogees fit this very closely in fact) then the FR variations for all amps attached to it will be minimal.

I understood your point perfectly...the first time. My whole point, which you obtusely seem to want to dance around is that why worry about deviations in FR at all when there are tools to essentially eliminate the problem, ie. digital equalization? I agree it is an important problem but who cares when you can solve this most obvious of problems? I think you like to dwell on it because it is so obvious and easy for a non-technical guy like you to understand.

My whole point is that this problem is easily solved by today's technology. The rest of my point is that even when two completely different amps are hooked to a system and then that system is equalized to the same target curve, regardless of which amp, the sound with the two amps is STILL different, meaning it can't be due to FR variations as those have been corrected.

Once again, you assume (preconceptually) that FR is a major issue to be solved, when in fact if you take advantage of tools readily available on the market, the problem basically just goes away.

Its great that you want to sound scientific and important on the forum by talking about amp/speaker interface and impedance variations in the speaker leading to FR variations, as if we haven't known this for a long time or something. However; this is not 1985, it is 2007 and the issue of linear FR is not a major one when you have the right tools. In fact, a designer nowadays should be much more concerned with speaker sensitivity, dynamic range, and colorations from the cabinet/horns and drivers, thermal and dynamic compression, harmonic distortion, resonances etc. than they should be about FR because FR is so easily correctable regardless of the amp used. As long as the mismatch between the drivers is not too great and their headroom is adequate, equalization can make them match, in time and FR (look at TACT and Lyngdorf audio for example...they even provide some xovers).

Then the important parameters for an amp are not output impedance but distortion, headroom, power, linearity over that power delivery range etc.

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