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Question about the Technics SP10 - what makes it so special?

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Posted on March 20, 2010 at 22:23:59
ppopp
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Location: OR
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I grew up in an audio world where nearly all the serious or high-end turntables were belt drive. I have noticed there are lots of serious audio nuts who are very fond of what at first glance appears to be a regular plastic direct drive deck with a bog-standard rubber mat from Japan.
Many, many different models fitting this description were made by various well know (and not so well known) Far Eastern manufacturers.

Here's my question; is it simply because, despite the plastic chassis, it has an amazingly good bearing and alarmingly silent motor?

 

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Nothing "plastic" about the Technics SP10..., posted on March 20, 2010 at 22:54:35
rich121
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Posts: 5401
Location: Yakima, Washington
Joined: March 8, 2003
I think you need to research what your posting about a little more, as the body of the SP10 is aluminium not plastic...also, I would suggest doing a search, this would answer your questions.


Rick
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"If you don't know, I ain't a-gonna tell ya", posted on March 20, 2010 at 23:30:20
M3 lover
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Contributor
  Since:
July 4, 2007
to quote a song from my youth.

ppopp, I see you're not a newbie, but your question sounds like one. Certainly we can't all be expected to be familiar with all the popular components available, but have you ever seen a SP-10 or any other top rated DD table? None of them have a plastic chassis.

There has been tons of discussion regarding DD (and rim drives) compared to belt drives, which ones are worth owning, considerations on why they fell out of favor, and why they have regained so much popularity. I agree with Rick, a little search will answer your questions, and then some.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

Well... he might be talking about the SH-10B3 plinth, posted on March 21, 2010 at 00:08:07
travisty
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Posts: 1368
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which is the TNRC (Technics Non-Resonant Compound) which for all its weight, and considerable resonance-draining/damping properties is some kind of petrochemical-derived polymer/resin compound.

 

Nope, wrong again..don't know where you got your info but..., posted on March 21, 2010 at 00:43:24
rich121
Audiophile

Posts: 5401
Location: Yakima, Washington
Joined: March 8, 2003
I own 2 SP10 MKII's and one is mounted on a SH-10B3 plinth.

I also have 2 original SH-10B3 owners manuals...

Don't know where you come up with your "TNRC (Technics Non-Resonant Compound) which for all its weight, and considerable resonance-draining/damping properties is some kind of petrochemical-derived polymer/resin compound"

I assume you did a word search on your computer and confused your above information (which I found to actually form the frames of the less expensive Technics turntables such as the SL P1200, the SL 5 etc.).


Real answer, from the owners manual:

Surface is made of natural obsidian


Rick

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If you take your plinth apart... , posted on March 21, 2010 at 03:34:35
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: Tokyo
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you'll find the SH-10B3 manual to be correct...

The surface is "obsidian."

I had always thought it was 'obsidian glass' made of a 'man-made' silicon dioxide mixture rather than obsidian carved from a solid hunk of volcanic residual (which would be prohibitively difficult to do I would have thought because of the way glass can shatter when you cut or grind a bezel or holes into it)]. I do not know if naturally-formed obsidian chunks can be re-melted and used. If so, that would have been one way to do it. Note that most man-made glass melts at roughly the same temperature as stainless steel when you use soda ash in the processing so it probably could have been done in-house.

If you take apart the plinth, as I did once several years ago, you will see that the 'mahogany' veneered CLD-style material and the 'obsidian' have a rubber gasket between them, and when you remove it to look at the 'obsidian' plinth by itself, the inner part is quite gray, and it appears to be 'molded' and a different material. It has a different 'touch' and it conducts heat differently (the obsidian is cool to the touch, the inner part is not). There is a clean straight edge (that you can probably see in some places - perhaps near the hinge - even if you do not take the wooden part off) which is about 3mm thick. That is the 'obsidian' outer shell as far as I can tell. The inner part, and the bulk of the weight of the upper half of the plinth, and the place where the mounting screw holes are sunk, appeared at the time to be the molded resin compound.

I probably should have said "TNRC (Technics Non-Resonant Compound) which for all its weight, and considerable resonance-draining/damping properties is PROBABLY some kind of petrochemical-derived polymer/resin compound."

I did not know what that compound was made of, but it looked to me like it was some kind of polymer, perhaps with very finely ground stone powder in it to give it weight. It is quite dense in the form it takes in the plinth innards, and in Sony's plinth. When I asked around, I was told that it was a plastic-polymer of some sort, but that was from an industry person who knew the Sony stuff, not someone who knew the Technics stuff (but they are supposed to be quite similar compounds). That said, the Sony stuff looks from the outside like it is obsidian too. It is eminently possible that it uses reconstituted silicon dioxide (plus something) to give it color and hardness to the outer layer, and the inner layer has a different composition.

I don't appear to have a copy of the SH-10B3 or SH-10B5 manual at hand, but turning over my SH-10B5 just now, I also note that the surface underneath is different than the surface above, both in finish, and in heat conductivity. The underside of the SH-10B5 is very cleanly molded and on one of mine, there are scratches which are somewhat deep near a corner (which would not happen if it were real obsidian, or man-made obsidian. Real obsidian would chip cleanly. I know because I have had a few chipped SH-10B3s before).

When I took mine apart, I dug around (online) in Japanese to find out what it was. I remember seeing a Japanese reference to the fact that the SH-10B5 was one molded piece of T.N.R.C. (which is used as a non-resonant piece for a number of parts in the Technics line, including the shell-plinth of the 5300 series, and perhaps later tables in a thin layer, and, IIRC, some parts of the underside of the casing of the SH-10Mk3 housing).

EDIT:
edited once to add the link to Nisi-san's website.
edited a second time to fix some phrasing which had missing words.

At the bottom, it mentions that the SH-10B5 is made of a single block of T.N.R.C.

The quote:
"SH10B5は,テクニクス自慢の音響素材T.N.R.C.(Technics Non Resonance Compound)による一体成形で,重量は,巨大トルクと重量級ターンテーブルのSP-10MK3に対応するため"

 

As Rich says, no plastic, cast aluminum, motor has enough torque, posted on March 21, 2010 at 05:22:22
to serve as a winch (just kidding . . . a little). The MK2s and MK3s are highly sought after prizes.

 

Wikipedia..., posted on March 21, 2010 at 06:06:11
deaf_j
Audiophile

Posts: 467
Location: La Porte (Houston)
Joined: January 30, 2005
says that Obsidian is black if cut one way and glistening gray if cut another. Maybe a reason for the different colors?

They also mention the use as plinths.

Both at the end of the article.


Regards, Jerry

 

The Wikipedia entry..., posted on March 21, 2010 at 07:08:47
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
probably comes from the manual, and not from independent materials analysis by the obsidian expert who contributed... :^)

And the inside of the plinth, where gray, doesn't "glisten" - it's pretty dull.

I could be wrong. It would not be the first nor last time.
I haven't opened another since that time I opened the first. Perhaps I will try tomorrow to see how it looks and feels again (though I did check just now and the one I have close at hand has the same 3mm thick exterior veneer, visible in the slot in the back near the hinge). It will be interesting to look at it again.

EDIT
Addition of another site link

 

As Rich & Opus say... great tables in any case... [nt], posted on March 21, 2010 at 07:28:36
travisty
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Posts: 1368
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003

 

Does the gray material , posted on March 21, 2010 at 09:01:57
tubesforever
Manufacturer

Posts: 10505
Location: Great Basin
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Resemble the polyester based gray plastic used in the more modern SL-1200 tables? (My earlier SL-1200 is volcanized rubber while the later models used polyester with a rubber boot making a 3 part cld.)

Polyester mixed with epoxy or other resins IMO makes an excellent cld material for a studio based environment. This is not a cheap method to control resonance. It has to be injection molded and these molds are very expensive.

I agree with you that the Obsidian is likely to be man made. This is better in many ways because natural Obsidian flakes and chips pretty readily.

Great thread by the way! I have never seen the guts inside the Obsidian plinth.

"Help support our school's Music programs"


 

TNRC is a compound the Technics used on a lot of 80's 'tables, like this..., posted on March 21, 2010 at 10:38:59
Dman
Audiophile

Posts: 7211
Location: Kansas
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The Technics SL-Q200. I had one when they came out and it was my first kinda real 'table (MUCH better than the crappy plastic thing I had as a pre-teen).

Dman
Analog Junkie

 

RE: Question about the Technics SP10 - what makes it so special?, posted on March 21, 2010 at 11:08:59
Posts: 7738
Location: Powell, Wyoming
Joined: July 23, 2007
Apparently we grew up in different worlds. I never bought into the mindset or bias that "nearly all the serious or high-end turntables were belt drive." There's too many excellent direct drive and idler drive turntables out there that can't be ignored.

Looks like your comment about "plastic chassis" has been addressed.

I currently have 19 turntables. The four in daily use are all direct drive models, three of them quartz-locked. One is a Technics SP-15, which is similar to the SP-10. I spin an average of ten LPs every day and frequently play 45s & 78s. I have no particular preference for direct drive vs. idler or belt, it just happens that the direct drive models I own are better suited to my needs, due to these features:

-Exceptionally low rumble
-Exceptionally low wow & flutter
-Extremely accurate speed control
-Clear, detailed and precise sound reproduction
-Instant start/stop, ease of use
-Adjustable pitch control (Technics SP-15 & Technics SL-1200)
-Reliability & great build quality
-Cost/Value

There you have it. Until such time I find a crazy deal on an ***excellent*** used belt or idler drive at a yard sale, I'm gonna stick to direct drive.

 

Whatever it is...., posted on March 21, 2010 at 13:02:34



It sure smells like fiberglass when you grind on it.

 

RE: Question about the Technics SP10 - what makes it so special?, posted on March 21, 2010 at 14:36:16
ppopp
Audiophile

Posts: 2994
Location: OR
Joined: October 10, 2002
Useful information. When I first started looking into hi-fi separates, the majority of the people who said direct drive t/t's were the better option were also the people who said the more watts, the better the amplifier. I believed them at the time because I didn't know otherwise.

But when I started going to dealers, the information was very different (possibly because they didn't carry any of the Japanese offerings and only had the Rega, Linn, Michell, Pink Tiangle, Roksan offerings). What got me into buying better than budget gear was when I went to audition CD players in 1991 and found that the models costing about 2 grand didn't sound a whole lot better than say, a Marantz CD52SE or Nakamichi OMS-1E. But then sales guy said 'try this one.' I was blown away by an incredible sound which really opened up the performance and allowed the instruments to sound so real and very well separated. Turns out it was a Michell Gyrodec/RB300/Ortofon MC.

So we started talking about vinyl, and when I asked about direct drive, he sold me on the unreliability, the rumble, the lack of resistance to external vibrations.

It was easy for me to believe because all the other dealers who sold the really nice gear also only carried belt drive turntables.

Since then I've taken the bulk of my vinyl knowledge from trips to dealers and trying decks out. I take my hi-fi quite seriously and and have heard many different systems in store and at hi-fi shows (most of which were in the UK in the 90's where pretty much all the decks were belt drive).

Because of the lack of new direct drive decks at affordable prices these days (is it a Technics or nothing?), it appears as though belt drive won the 'drive war' ages ago. My guess is because electronically, they are cheaper to manufacture (despite what some of the brands are asking for certain unremarkable decks with high prices). Anyone can have a motor and bearing system made, just add platter and armboard and belt. But when you start using massy platters and chassis prices start to go nuts. Obviously, a good DD deck doesn't need a massy platter, and massy chassis to handle it. So why are there no, or so few direct drive turntables out there aside from the SL1200/1210?

The few people I know who take audio seriously and are using direct drive decks are largely into modern/electronic/dance music and say they love the sound of DD because of the PRaT and speed stability.
How much more to it is there for what you like about their sound?
I've yet to have the chance to hear a good DD deck in a well-matched system.

I've used belt drive decks since 1991: Pioneer PL12D, Michell Gyrodec/SME IV/Ortofon MC30 Supreme, VPI Scout/JMW9/Dynavector 10x5. They all sound quite different, even when all had the same cartridge (I've had them all playing a Goldring 1042). And always they sounded more enjoyable to the ear than any of my CD player/DAC combinations.

I've read good things about modded direct drive decks in the UK's Hi-Fi World magazine (they recently had an SL1200 with a SME Series V and Koetsu cartridge), but the idea of forking-out several hundred for a 20-30 year old direct drive turntable leaves me a little weary.

What you've listed as the things you like most (sonically) about your DD decks are traits often found in CD players. Do DD decks compare with BD decks as far as musicality, sound-staging, 3 dimensionality and timbre are concerned?

 

I scanned the SH-10B3 owners manual..., posted on March 21, 2010 at 15:20:26
rich121
Audiophile

Posts: 5401
Location: Yakima, Washington
Joined: March 8, 2003



Since this is natural obsidian, and it is "glass" it could very well be formed in a mould using heat and liquified.

However it was formed is not really important, as, it most obviously is not plastic.
The cost in 1989 for just the SH-10B3 base was $950.00, or $1660.00 converted to 2010 dollars.


Rick
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Clarification...., posted on March 22, 2010 at 10:33:51
rich121
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Location: Yakima, Washington
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This is on your SL1200, NOT a SP10 table...

Rick
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RE: Question about the Technics SP10 - what makes it so special?, posted on March 22, 2010 at 11:05:21
JimL
Audiophile

Posts: 3773
Location: New Mexico
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I suggest you check out Mike Lavigne's (aka mikel on AA) and Albert Porter's systems on Audiogon.

Mike has a high end system with three top turntables, a modified Garrard 301 idler, a Technics SP-10 Mk II or III (don't recall which) and a Rockport Sirius III DD, and finds them all highly enjoyable in terms of the sonic traits you are concerned about.

Albert has had a large number of turntables, and about 1-2 years ago replaced his Walker Proscenium turntable with a Technics SP-10 Mk II, followed by a III because he found that he preferred the sound of the Technics. He has also had favorable comments about idler turntables including the "lowly" Lenco and a Garrard owned by a friend.

Bottom line: Top DD and idler turntables can compare favorably with any belt drive. What YOU prefer will depend on your priorities, budget, etc. Also remember that turntables such as the Garrard 301, 401 and Technics SP-10 were designed for professional use, meaning 24/7/365, back in the day when vinyl was practically the only playback source for broadcast use. Those turntables were designed to last, and they have.

 

I listened to Mike's 3 turntables a couple weeks ago.., posted on March 22, 2010 at 16:21:52
rich121
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Posts: 5401
Location: Yakima, Washington
Joined: March 8, 2003
And spent a Saturday night enjoying great conversation with one of the best people I know, and listened to Mikes 3 distict sounding turntables.

It was easy to tell the differences...and some of the differences were with the different arms/carts, but, I would say the major sonic qualities were table specific.

Rick


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