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Question about ultrsonic cleaning

72.211.237.239

Posted on November 28, 2024 at 16:01:27
Posts: 3086
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
I use a simple manual RCM vacuum machine that works well AFAICT. After cleaning, some discs have a few clicks and pops and I wonder if I was to add an ultrasonic step, or replace the RCM completely, would those clicks and pops disappear? I once took a fairly noisy disc to a show and had Kirmuss do his stuff and it didn't make a difference to the amount of noise or sound quality but I wonder if the occasional pops I get from an otherwise clean disc could be removed by ultrasonics.
I don't want to mess about with the generic ultrasonic bath + motorized skewer systems (e.g. Vevor) so I am thinking of a Humminguru or, even, a Degritter. Has anyone compared a Hummiguru to an RCM (or used the two in combination) and is a Degritter worth the extra over a Humminguru?

TiA

 

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Good thing about skewer systems is that the separate parts can be replaced, posted on November 28, 2024 at 23:08:32
alaskahiatt
Audiophile

Posts: 7735
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
November 1, 2005
for a lot cheaper than any all-in-one units when they fail.

 

My RCM Historical -- Partly, posted on November 29, 2024 at 04:43:09
afro18
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: NorthEast Ohio
Joined: December 1, 2003
I think I can offer some help here...

I used to have a VPI HW 16.5. Combined with a two-step process (enzyme scrub, soak, and vacuum; then a distilled water scrub, soak, and vacuum); the vacuum-based system offered a lot of sound improvement.

HOWEVER,

I then tried the Kirmuss at home. At first, I was wondering if I was doing anything right. Then, I have the bright idea to take 'cheap-to-me' Decca Narrowband of the Britten Cello Suites 1 and 2 and run it in the Kirmuss 'process' 17 rounds ! Let's just say it is the best sounding record in my collection BY A MILE !

Not having time or excess cash to run the Kirmuss process on my collection; I decided to give the Degritter a try. At first -- again -- the question lingered if I was doing this process correctly. HOWEVER -- I LEARNED SOME THINGS TO NOTE WHEN CLEANING RECORDS ULTRASONICALLY:


1. One rotation is not enough IMHO. You need at least 4 total rotations.


2. Once the record has been though the machine, IF YOU ARE USING SURFACTANT OR ANY 'PROVIDED' CLEANERS, YOU MUST MUST MUST RINSE MULTIPLE TIMES TO GET THAT STUFF OFF THE RECORD. When I did this; the sound improved by miles (using a similar process to rinse that Kirmuss does -- only 3 times per side). When you rinse the record this much (I use the Degritter's dry-only cycle after all the rinsing is done to get the record dry again); YOU WILL BE AMAZED HOW MUCH BETTER IT SOUNDS ! Give it a try -- your welcome !

3. When you clean this way, the first playback MIGHT have the stylus remove some dust from the record (I SUSPECT it's actually some of the dirt that was previously settled in the pockets of the grooves). Just play the record 1 time for both sides, and after each side clean the needle and use a Carbon Fiber brush to remove the loosened dust/dirt. BUT EVEN THAT FIRST PLAY; YOU WILL BE AMAZED AT THE SOUND!

Now, what is rumored to be the 'magic combo' is an ultrasonic cleaner combined with a vacuum-based system to rinse and extract any loose dirt (which my method is doing to much of the playable region. but that way would probably be much better....especially with a Loricraft/Keith Monks point-and-noozle machine). The 'almost-as-good' method is to do manual rinsing with machine drying of records that have had multiple ultrasonic cleaning 'passes' -- which I am doing and happy with the results.

Do I think I am getting better results with the ultrasonic versus vacuum systems ? YES. Now, it does reduce SOME ticks and pops (the best system to use to remove ticks and pops is the Kirumss; but plan to spend 30 - 60 minutes per 3 LPs to get most of the ticks removed on a consistent basis); but what makes the ultrasonic so much better is the SOUND QUALITY. ONLY AFTER RINSING MULTIPLE TIMES AFTER AN ULTRASONIC CLEANING AND 1 FULL PLAYBACK OF BOTH SIDES TO REMOVE MUCH OF THE LOOSENED DIRT....

The sound is SO MUCH BETTER. Horns have a snap and clarity they did not ever before (even my digital flac files sound veiled now -- and I am using a sub-$500 Moving Magnet cartridge on a 'built-in phono preamp'). The groove noise on most post 1975 LPs is TOTALLY GONE! I can hear the vibrato in each pluck of a string of a Rodrigo Concierto de Aranjuez on an early 1980's London Stereo Treasury LP I paid $2 USD for! I am amazed at how many post 1975 classical records now have faint wood floor creaking -- mass page turning at the end of a movement -- I can even hear on remasters of the tube-mastered 'golden age' the hiss of the tape starting and finishing !! I now hear the occasionally missed note from one of the string or woodwind players.....AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED WITH LIVE JAZZ CLUB RECORDS [re: WALTZ FOR DEBBY]....let's just say My Foolish Heart a lot going on in the crowd [do you hear anything pointing to a business deal or a possible divorce in that crowd ?]

NOTE: From my experience; the record cleaning system removed a lot of the surface dirt and made the record look great. The Degritter loosened the dirt and removed more, while the loose dirt was easy to remove with the stylus.

MY RECOMMENDATION: Get an ultrasonic cleaner for now and just do manual rinses (watch Kirmuss' demos to see how he rinses with a spray bottle of distilled water and some cloths -- get some IPAD glass cleaning cloths from WalMart for $3 each [10 to start] and those have worked fine for me). When money and space are available, add a record vacuum system to do the rinse parts [while Loricraft or Monks are ideal here; you should get most of those gains even from the Record Doctor and DEFINATELY the VPI machines -- those VPI's are TANKS]

...ENJOY !


Martin

 

RE: Question about ultrsonic cleaning, posted on November 29, 2024 at 08:18:10
Sondek
Audiophile

Posts: 10305
Location: Fort Worth
Joined: May 17, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
I've had a Kirmuss for five years or so. Had a 16.5 for probably twice that long before I got the K machine.

IME, yes, the US can remove ticks, clicks and pops that the VPI doesn't begin to touch, but it's not capable of miracles. Groove damage is groove damage.

I had a Rickie Lee Jones "Pop Pop" LP that brand new had an unacceptable and really annoying number of ticks and pops all through "Love Junkyard". The whole of side four was full of them. I have no idea how many cleanings I gave that damned record on the VPI without any real effect. Even tried steam cleaning it and nada.

Seven trips through the US using Kirmuss restoration regimin and bingo! 90% of the T&P gone. Further work on it might improve it further, but too lazy to put in the work.

Not advocating for Kirmuss. In fact I am seriously considering getting a Degritter too. Took a long time, but have finally realized what the Kirmuss's best use case is, and it's not for someone like me that basically just wants to drop in, tune out and let the machine do all the work for you. I'll keep the Kirmuss for those deep dive restorations.

 

RE: Good thing about skewer systems is that the separate parts can be replaced, posted on November 29, 2024 at 08:55:48
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3512
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since:
September 4, 2000
+1. I fall into the "skewer" category as well. Yet it's not a handy one and done solution like those mentioned above. I end up doing 30-36 albums in a cleaning session with a final distilled water rinse and vac with a Nitty Gritty. I'm amazed on how quiet most albums become after this cleaning procedure. However as already mentioned above, no cleaning procedure can cure a damaged record.

 

my choice was the Degritter, posted on December 3, 2024 at 22:32:15
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15483
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
of course damage like that from mistracking and well ground in ticks can't be removed BUT i have resurrected many fine LP such as "For Duke" and jumped their value up several notches.

i have had service problems that were promptly and willingly handled by the factory with no cost to me. that it washes AND dries the disc to playable condition in one swell foop makes it to be very satisfying.
...regards...tr

 

RE: "in one swell foop" ?, posted on December 4, 2024 at 05:03:44
peppy m.
Audiophile

Posts: 5002
Joined: February 19, 2021
Ay, I like dat !

 

I have some experience with US cleaning, posted on December 21, 2024 at 08:17:44
Ross
Audiophile

Posts: 1848
Joined: January 24, 2000
My process started with a discwasher, various fluids, and a lot of scrubbing. There was some audible improvement.

I added a Nitty Gritty vac cleaner, and achieved better results. Then a I added a Spin Clean step and noticed additional improvement. However even "clean" LPs retained a low level shooooshhhh-woooooshhhh sound in the background.

Then I added US cleaning using the Vinyl Studio skewer and a chinese tank.

This was a great leap forward ! I have 70yr old LPs with a noise floor lower than that of my system. Shooshhhh-Wooosshhh disappeared. I can hear track decay into silence or an abrupt cut off when the engineer reduced gain. I can hear residual tape hiss. I can hear minute squeaks and noise from trumpet and saxophone valves. Transient response is so much better. Space, air and microdynamics are easily heard. My theory is that a microscopic layer of grunge becomes embedded in the grooves, particularly at the edges within grooves. US cleaning removes this layer of grunge and uncovers the sharp groove edges that convey sharp transient response, and additional sound stage cues.

My current process:

Spin Clean to remove loose dirt, and moisten embedded dirt.

US Bath at 30' C / 15 min at 0.33 rpm / 5 complete revolutions / Using Rushton's formula

Rinse with distilled water

Nitty Gritty Vac Dry then air dry for about 15-20 min before placing into a new MoFi inner bag.

I am consistently amazed at how effective US is at cleaning LPs.

I recently noticed that a fitting close to the drain shuttlecock of my US tank started to pit and expose rust. I was able to replace the tank at nominal cost. A self contained unit would have been a total write off requiring replacement of the entire device.

I will likely look at the Humminbird Guru if I ever change my US equipment.

US for the win !

 

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