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MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB

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Posted on September 16, 2023 at 09:25:35
Mister Pig
Audiophile

Posts: 531
Joined: September 21, 1999

One of my favorite phono cartridges is the Ortofon MC 2000, I have it with the T2000 SUT. Even so the combined output is still low, and going into my Esoteric E-03 phono stage I have to add a lot of additional gain from the pre amp.

Since I no longer use the Esoteric for direct input of moving coil cartridges I thought I might see if there is a better choice for a MM style phono stage that offers greater gain.

I have looked a bit, but not seen anything jump out. Anyone have run across an excellent MM only phono stage with higher than 40dB of gain?

 

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RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 16, 2023 at 10:19:30
afro18
Audiophile

Posts: 606
Location: NorthEast Ohio
Joined: December 1, 2003
The newer Lehmann Black Cube series (including Jubilee and Decade) have 36db gain in the moving magnet stage. HOWEVER, there is a switch to add 10db to that and make it 46db total.

Martin N.



 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 16, 2023 at 14:23:42
ecl876
Audiophile

Posts: 3229
Location: Bend, Oregon
Joined: January 14, 2007
Contributor
  Since:
January 28, 2012
From Rega. I just saw that it's only to be used with Rega power supply.

 

This one...-...-, posted on September 16, 2023 at 15:59:31
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7554
Joined: September 21, 1999
Aric is building me a custom 300B amp right now and soon will begin a build of this phono stage, but with some upgrades including a pair of SUTs.







Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 16, 2023 at 18:16:36
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23727
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
I had an MC-2000 with T-2000 step-up transformer years ago. Mine worked just fine with the 35-dB MM phono stage in my Yamaha C-2x preamp. The T-2000 provides 35-dB of gain so it should work with a 35 to 40-dB phono stage. In other words, 70 to 75-dB total phono gain should be sufficient for the MC-2000's 50-microvolt rated output. For example, 75-dB will raise the MC-2000's 50-microvolt rated output to 0.281-volts, which should be more than sufficient. Most MM cartridges are rated between 4 and 5-mV; therefore, a 35-dB phono stage will raise 4-mV to 0.225-volts, which isn't even as high as 0.281-volts. Consequently, a 40-dB phono stage should work very nicely with the MC-2000 / T-2000 combo.

I wonder if perhaps your MC-2000 is past its prime and no longer a viable phono cartridge. Either that, or the T-2000 is damaged and no longer providing its rated 35-dB of gain. Since you're in the market for a new phono stage anyway, perhaps you should buy a moving coil phono stage with 75-dB of total gain and forget about using the T-2000 step-up transformer. That's what I decided to do years ago when I bought my Pass Labs XOno with its 75-dB of total phono gain. I actually prefer the sound of active phono stages rather than using step-up transformers.

I've never heard a step-up transformer that sounds better than a topnotch active phono stage, although I have heard SUTs that sound just as good. I was very impressed with the Bob's Devices CineMag 1131 SUT because it was the first SUT I'd heard that sounded as good as my Pass Labs XOno active phono stage. I tested it by connecting it to my XOno in its MM configuration and comparing that with my XOno by itself in its MC configuration. Bob's newer Sky SUTs are supposedly even better sounding than his original Blue Label CineMag 1131.

At any rate, if everything's working properly with your MC-2000 / T-2000 combo, a 40-dB phono stage should be more than sufficient.

Good luck!
John Elison

 

Tired of the..., posted on September 17, 2023 at 08:06:06
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4423
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
SPL Audio Phonos? When with you have the new Phono Preamp?

 

Hagerman Audio Labs, posted on September 17, 2023 at 08:20:31
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4423
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
Cornet MM - Vacuum Tube Phono Preamp has a 44db gain if you want a Tube MM preamp for $589.

 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 17, 2023 at 14:31:32
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2909
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
I've never tried one but have been tempted for a while partly due to the many options for dialing things in, including quite a few moving magnet gain options from 40dB on up. They seem really nice by the looks of the marketting brochure. Specs out pretty well, and they even appear to maybe even use those little Wima pp caps in the eq.

 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 17, 2023 at 15:20:27
Pyramid
Audiophile

Posts: 82
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Joined: May 14, 2014
SOTA's Pyxi phone stage has 45dB of gain:

 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 17, 2023 at 16:57:13
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2425
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
I use a Quicksilver with my mm cartridge. It has 47db gain!

 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 17, 2023 at 22:45:36
Mister Pig
Audiophile

Posts: 531
Joined: September 21, 1999



@John Elison

Actually that does bring up a point I had not given full consideration.

I have two MC2000 cartridges. My first one suffered an accident in a Dynavector DV 505 arm I had. I was adjusting VTA and the arm wand popped out of the holder, it seems I bumped it and the magnetic lock was not strong enough. I bent a cantilever on the side of the record. It literally broke my heart, and I did not play vinyl for close to 6 months after that.

I was fortunate and was able to contact a person I knew who had one in excellent shape. When I got it I sent it to my cartridge guy along with the first MC2000. The OEM one got a new microridge diamond, as this was the best option I could achieve. The damaged one got a boron cantilever with the same diamond. That cartridge has become my casual one, and happened to be the one I listened to when i wrote this post. Now does the boron cantilever affect output level?I would not think so, but who knows?

This evening I put the OEM one on. They are both in Denon PCL-5 magnesium head shells, since they weigh only 6 grams. They have the same silver litz wire head shell leads.

These cartridges have a clarity to them that makes the volume level you listen to a bit misleading. I find I have my listening levels a bit higher than normal, or at least that is what the wife says. With the OEM cartridge I find that dynamic passages are more powerful, and the upper mids are a bit more robust. The boron cantilevered one is a bit peaky in comparison. It is still very good, and it is just fine for listening to rock and roll, or when I am at the computer. It allows me to keep the transformer in place and make easy swaps to the OEM one. So it has its place, but it still pains me that I lost such a remarkable cartridge.

The OEM one is one of my favorite cartridges, and it is amazing what was possible at that time period. I once thought about selling it because its so restrictive of arms, phono stages, and its a pain in the ass to ground. But when I listen to it, I am utterly charmed. I have a Verismo on a Schroder arm, and I enjoy it immensely, but if I only had the MC2000 I could be happy.

As far as the transformer goes, its a silver wire, I don't think I have ever heard of these failing.


 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 17, 2023 at 22:50:47
Mister Pig
Audiophile

Posts: 531
Joined: September 21, 1999



My T2000 was never mistreated.

 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 18, 2023 at 03:13:51
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23727
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
Wow! I'd never taken my T-2000 apart like that.

My guess is that probably the MC-2000 with the new boron cantilever might have lower output voltage now. It's just a guess, though. Another guess is that you might like higher output than the standard output from your MC-2000 / T-2000 combo. As for me, the standard output worked just fine.

Anyway, there are plenty of MM phono stages with gains between 45 and 50-dB. Therefore, it shouldn't be difficult to find one you like.

Good luck!
John Elison

 

RE: Yes ..., posted on September 18, 2023 at 04:03:19
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12496
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
I can custom-make one of my jfet-based, MM 'Muse' phono stages with up to 47dB of gain.

I build it with additional pairs of input RCAs, to allow for variable:
* cap loading
* and res loading.

Powered by a 24v Sbooster LPS.

 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 18, 2023 at 08:21:48
2chblast
Audiophile

Posts: 195
Location: Calgary
Joined: February 7, 2004
You might want to look into the Bottlehead Eros2 which has a gain of 50 dB

 

Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+ and III, posted on September 18, 2023 at 12:17:48
ToddM
Audiophile

Posts: 1603
Location: Atlanta, USA
Joined: May 15, 2001
The II and II+ have up to 44dB, I think I recall seeing that the III allows up to 60dB. Very flexible preamps, very clean and full-sounding. I love my II+ and don't foresee upgrading for a long while - like you, I'm working on the room until I get that as squared-away as possible.

 

RE: Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+ and III, posted on September 19, 2023 at 06:05:39
louie3
Audiophile

Posts: 942
Location: Signal Mountain, TN
Joined: January 14, 2006
Any of the Sutherland phono stages have adjustable gain. My 20-20 certainly does.

 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 19, 2023 at 07:05:33
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1871
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since:
December 14, 2012
If by "adding gain," you mean turning the volume up, understand that your pre, and pretty much all amplifiers, have fixed gain. The volume control *reduces* the input signal to give you control over the loudness coming out of the speakers.

Put another way, it's not like your car's accelerator pedal. Push the pedal and the engine runs faster, working harder. Not so with amplifiers and preamps. The amount of gain they provide is fixed, though, especially with power amplifiers, as the music gets louder there will be more heat that needs to be dissipated.

So unless your cartridge won't drive the preamp to an acceptable level with the volume control all the way up, you're fine.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: MM Phono Stages With Gain Greater Than 40 dB, posted on September 19, 2023 at 10:15:07
Mister Pig
Audiophile

Posts: 531
Joined: September 21, 1999
Except gain structure matters in a system. Noise floors are different and if you are in a range where you don't get enough gain at a previous stage...the phono preamp in this case...you just don't make it up at the preamp stage without consequences.

 

RE: "If by "adding gain" you mean turning the volume up" ..., posted on September 19, 2023 at 16:46:49
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12496
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
You seem to have the wrong end of the stick, Bill?

It seems clear to me that the OP wants a phono stage which has a higher (fixed!) gain than the standard 40dB ... so that the output level going into his preamp is higher than it is, currently.

For instance - his Ortofon MC 2000 has an absurdly low output of 0.05mV; using an Ortofon T2000 SUT (60x gain) this becomes 0.3mV - so the output from a 40dB MM phono stage will be 3mV.

Whereas if he had a 46dB MM phono stage ... the output would be 600mV.

 

RE: "If by "adding gain" you mean turning the volume up" ..., posted on September 19, 2023 at 18:12:00
Analog Bob
Manufacturer

Posts: 197
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Joined: September 7, 2007
andyr is correct. The Ortofon 2000 SUT is 1:60. I have built a few SUTs at 1:60, quite a feat! I don't know if Jasmine still makes phono stages, but I have owned in the past a Jasmine 2.0 that had 55db in the MM section with 47k ohms impedance. That should work fine, if you can find one.

 

RE: "If by "adding gain" you mean turning the volume up" ..., posted on September 19, 2023 at 19:34:00
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17031
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
"Ortofon MC 2000 has an absurdly low output of 0.05mV; using an Ortofon T2000 SUT (60x gain) this becomes 0.3mV"

I think that would be 3.0mv

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Manley Chinook, posted on September 19, 2023 at 20:33:34
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1871
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since:
December 14, 2012
45 or 60 dB gain, switchable
It accommodates either MM or MC

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

RE: You are absolutely correct! ..., posted on September 19, 2023 at 20:45:21
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12496
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
Thanks for pointing out my arithmetic error ... to avoid anyone getting confoosed, I will go back and edit my post.

 

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