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Spinning again (finally), and trying a conical stylus (long)

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Posted on August 10, 2023 at 07:42:49
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 It was time to change the needle of my Shure M97xe on a Grace 707, but as I'm sure all of you are aware, factory Shure needles are either unavailable or at crazy prices. So I decided that Jico would be a safe choice given them numerous positive comments. When I got my LP12 with Grace 707, I had planned to buy a moving coil. I bought the M97 as a stopgap measure because it was so cheap on Amazon. Then I fell in love with the relatively neutral, track anything sound. I was going to an aftermarket needle, so I decided that I also wanted to try the V15 III body that I had lying around with a bent cantilever. I suspect an SAS would be fabulous, but the price was beyond what I wanted to spend. For a while I have been very curious about Bob Fulton's/Decca's claim that a conical had less distortion than an elliptical.

Having been in the business, I've heard pretty much every type of stylus tip except a Fritz Gyger, and most of them on the same Precept body. I know that the more radical tips track high frequencies better, but I don't recall that I paid much attention to the midrange of conical cartridges with the exception of the Denon 103, which I like.

I managed to find a bonded Jico conical stylus at a very reasonable price and proceeded to install it on the 707. When I was installing cartridges every day, I could of gotten the Shure on the 707 without removing the arm, but more than 40 years later, I'm not so skilled. I got the arm off the table and installed the cartridge, and reinstalled the arm on the table. No left channel! Made sure it wasn't something else in the system and pulled the arm. A wire had disconnected in the Grace headshell. Out came the soldering iron. I checked continuity and installed the arm. Still no right channel. Pulled the arm and one of the clips was loose. Crimped the ends and checked continuity, still no right channel. Broke out the magnifying glass and saw that there was a short. Corrected the short and now I'm up and running. Frankie Valli and the 4 Seasons 25 Anniversary Collection sounds great, but I'll have to do a lot more listening before I come to any conclusions. Wew!

Dave

 

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Bob Fulton's/Decca's claim, posted on August 10, 2023 at 12:59:10
M3 lover
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Posts: 6464
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
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  Since: July 4, 2007
 Interesting.

I'm old enough to remember Fulton and his FMI products. While he didn't make cartridges he was said to favor the Shure V15 IV with a conical styli in his systems. I guess that was a special order. But that became known because J Gordon Holt rated it his favorite cartridge for awhile in Stereophile.

I don't recall hearing anything about a Decca.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

funny you mention the IV, posted on August 10, 2023 at 13:04:56
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 9316
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I have one with the spherical (conical) and it sounds...really NICE and nothing like the rags said about the elliptical or whichever one they were complaining about.

Everything about it is good especially the tracking



 

RE: Spinning again (finally), and trying a conical stylus (long), posted on August 10, 2023 at 21:00:58
hahax@verizon.net
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Posts: 4183
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 Just a guess but I wonder if Bob Fulton's(I knew him from his visits ti Gordon Holt in the 70s) choice of conical styli may be due to it being way easier to set up a conical pickup versus ellipticals or other exotic shapes. Even if the conical doesn't retrieve as much data ultimately it should be easy to align a conical versus an elliptical, etc. in a groove and get very good sound versus great sound but only with difficult set up. And I'll bet VTA is easier to set up with a conical. Plus not to mention if the elliptical isn't set in the cantilever perfectly You may never get the geometry right. Just conjectures? Thoughts?

 

RE: Spinning again (finally), and trying a conical stylus (long), posted on August 11, 2023 at 11:15:47
Basher52
Audiophile

Posts: 113
Joined: February 18, 2016
 My table fleet includes units from VPI, Rega and Thorens. Carts are variously Soundsmith, Grado and ... a Shure V15VxMR. That original Shure stylus, used a fair bit, is nearing it's sell by date. As you state offers for the OEM Shure stylus are both pricey and at this point, of dubious provenance (even though Shure used a high quality rubber compound in the suspension). So the SAS from JICO is the viable option. No, it's not a conical however I too enjoy the VxMR's neutral, musical presentation and inestimable mechanical performance. I go with what works .. and it would have been very nice if Shure maintained the V15 production line (though clearly with it being <5% of their revenue, plus the beryllium cantilever issue, the business case was unsupportable).

 

RE: Spinning again (finally), and trying a conical stylus (long), posted on August 12, 2023 at 06:48:31
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 The SAS was out of my price range. I wish I had bought one when they were a lot cheaper, but I agree it is a very viable choice. The conical is a real world experiment to see if there is any truth to Fulton's claims, and when I fully grasp the sound, I will be purchasing an elliptical or hyper elliptical to compare. If if find I prefer the conical, I will try to track down Jico's nude conical, but I will have to source it from Japan. I don't think anyone sells it in the US. I also have a few V15 IV.s. To my eyes the body is identical to the III, so whatever I like best my find its way to other turntables that I own.

 

RE: Spinning again (finally), and trying a conical stylus (long), posted on August 12, 2023 at 06:53:57
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 That is definitely true about the conical and part of my reason to try it. Regardless of the theory, if it sounds better, it is better. Bob did have a theoretical reason, but his results may very well have been influenced by this fact. After all, there is still debate about the optimal alignment specs. If I recall correctly, my 707 was designed with different specs in mind than Balward.

 

RE: funny you mention the IV, posted on August 12, 2023 at 07:02:01
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I thought it was a III that he used. I will check it out. A long time ago, I came across an online stylus company that was selling a new conical IV stylus for quite a lot of money. Maybe I let another treasure slip through my fingers!

Bob did make a cartridge later.

 

Conical MC!, posted on August 12, 2023 at 12:00:32
M3 lover
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Posts: 6464
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
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  Since: July 4, 2007
 Thanks Dave, I don't remember that cartridge and step up. So eventually Fulton possibly offered a full system line up. I remember he introduced a preamp and also had an amplifier which was hidden in a storage trunk, but I don't know if the latter was ever a commercial product?

I also read that he designed and sold a trumpet mouthpiece. A friend of mine in our alumni club had played trumpet in the marching band and said he used a Fulton mouthpiece.

The most fascinating thing about Fulton was he associated musical tones with colors. He offered a listing of those which I saw once but don't have a copy.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

RE: Conical MC!, posted on August 12, 2023 at 17:42:32
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I couldn't find anything about an amp, but I did find reference to him selling a Nexus Bravura preamp.

 

Art Dudley also favored conicals, posted on August 16, 2023 at 06:38:07
Jeff Maxson
Audiophile

Posts: 965
Joined: January 6, 2002
 among other vintage/old school approaches like 78s for instance.

 

RE: Art Dudley also favored conicals, posted on August 18, 2023 at 10:07:37
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I used to read Art's articles a lot. I have my father's 78's, all classical. But that will be for my Rek-O-Kut table or Garrard Type A that both have a 78 speed.

Dave

 

conical?, posted on September 3, 2023 at 19:18:14
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15354
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 sorry, i can't go there. if i could I would have a Denon 103 but nope for that. the spherical shape can't eke out the detail because of its fat shape.

as for the JICO stylus, I bit the bullet for my V15Vxmr which was reviewed in tas by Paul Seydor to a heartily positive rating. the stylus for the M97xe is the same price as for the V15V but I'm telling you, I never could feel comfortable with a stock Shure stylus sound. they ARE neutral but some sort of life is missing with them so when I snapped the perfectly fine xmr stylus, I was not crushed and coughed up the money for the SAS. i am NOT sorry. the sound is glorious.

had I the M97xe, I would do the same in a heartbeat.
...regards...tr

 

RE: conical?, posted on September 11, 2023 at 13:57:26
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 Well, it is easily reversed. So far, it sounds quite good and tracks well. I expect I will have to bite the bullet and buy and elliptical or hyper elliptical stylus to be sure. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to go to a more radical tip. VTA adjustment is rather crude with the Grace 707. I liked the sound of my stock M97xe, but I had the V15 body and wanted to try it.

 

RE: Art Dudley also favored conicals, posted on September 14, 2023 at 13:38:20
Krav Maga
Audiophile

Posts: 2214
Location: Texas
Joined: October 19, 2017
 Herb Reichert also has a penchant for conicals.



"All thoughts are prey to some beast" - Bill Callahan

 

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