Vinyl Asylum

Welcome Licorice Pizza (LP) lovers! Setup guides and Vinyl FAQ.

Return to Vinyl Asylum


Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Ortofon TA-110 vs Jelco

218.101.54.164

Posted on May 8, 2022 at 14:10:02
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2327
Joined: January 11, 2011
Has anyone used or have heard a TA-110 9" arm? They aren't cheap, but the modifications to a standard Jelco seem to have benefits based on measurements.
The reviews I have seen are enthusiastic, but they comment that the price puts it amongst very good competition. However, given that much of the competition (SME309 in particular) isn't available, the TA-1110 is still of interest to me.
The reason it is of interest to me is that I am in the process of modifying one of my SL1200s to accomodate a Jelco TS-550SII and the Ortofon should be a drop in replacement; although the Ortofon has a slightly shorter specified pivot/spindle distance this will not be a problem since I have plenty of adjustment room with the standard Jelco headshell slots and my linear offset jig will enable similarly accurate alignment.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

Hide full thread outline!
     Jelco - M3 lover 07:52:23 05/09/22 (3)
       RE: Jelco - flood2 13:43:12 05/10/22 (2)
         Link - viridian 14:07:27 05/10/22 (1)
    ...
Watching the thread, however..., posted on May 8, 2022 at 14:15:32
jupiterboy
Audiophile

Posts: 716
Location: Western New York
Joined: June 7, 2009
I noticed someone had mounted a new Sorane S arm on a 1200 recently. Don't know how it stacks up price wise.

 

Reasonably priced, made in the same factory as the uber expensive Ikeda arms. Nt, posted on May 8, 2022 at 14:35:01
viridian
Audiophile

Posts: 7899
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: May 26, 2005
Contributor
  Since:
February 1, 2012
Nt

 

RE: Watching the thread, however..., posted on May 8, 2022 at 22:26:31
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2327
Joined: January 11, 2011
Interesting! The Sorane effective mass is a bit on the heavy side for the cartridges I use, but it sounds like it would be good for those using the DL103 and SPUs. Ammonite Audio make really nice finished arm plates including blank plates so pretty much any arm can be fitted.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

Jelco, posted on May 9, 2022 at 07:52:23
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6206
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
  Since:
July 4, 2007
Anthony, this won't help much. A few years ago a friend bought a TA-110 after a bit of arm research. He was a knowledgable hobbyist and I always trusted his judgement. His set up on a VPI table with rim drive was very musical and satisfying.

However Jelco ceased production last year so is the TA-110 still being offered? Maybe Ortofon bought up a supply of the arms they modified?

"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk

 

An interesting look at all the noise surrounding compliance, link., posted on May 9, 2022 at 08:22:35
viridian
Audiophile

Posts: 7899
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: May 26, 2005
Contributor
  Since:
February 1, 2012
As I have been saying for years, it is the secondary arm resonances, not the primary resonance that is coloring the sound. Link below:

 

RE: An interesting look at all the noise surrounding compliance, link., posted on May 9, 2022 at 14:07:34
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2327
Joined: January 11, 2011
Hi Marty

Korf has chosen an example of a cartridge that is already quite nicely matched to the 750D which suits his narrative. What he should be doing is putting on a "fresh" (not aged with a hardened suspension) Shure V15TypeV (or any of the original high compliance Stantons like the CS100 or 881IIS) on to prove his point and I think you will find that his argument breaks down.
These days, most cartridges for sale are already an ideal match for most arms on the market so the need to worry about LF resonance and Q is not there for most people and there is a broad range of effective mass that these cartridges are going to work satisfactorily with.
For me, the SL1200 arm was already too high in effective mass for some of my high compliance cartridges to perform at their best.

The consequence of putting a very high compliance cartridge on an arm that has a higher effective mass than ideal such that the LF resonance is <<8Hz is that the VTA and SRA become very inconstant - the modulation of the groove signal gives rise to an audible warbling if the LF resonance drops too far below 8Hz
On an SL1200 arm, my original AT440ML and Pickering XSV4000 had a LF resonance <7Hz (between 6 and 7). I discovered that some British pressings cut at The Exchange exhibited sub sonic rumble that excited the LF resonance even on a flat pressing and the stylus was bouncing up and down and sideways with an alarming amplitude which degraded the tracking ability massively and there was a coarseness to the sound. I speculated that the building in which the cutting lathe was sited may have been shaking when the underground trains were passing underneath or perhaps they were monitoring live while cutting - either way the result was an unstable cantilever.

Secondary arm resonances are the least of my concerns if the basics like a stable VTA/SRA and good tracking can't be achieved!

Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

Have some issues getting his calc to work..., posted on May 9, 2022 at 15:08:37
jupiterboy
Audiophile

Posts: 716
Location: Western New York
Joined: June 7, 2009
but on the iPad it's OK. My seat of the pants is that I agree. That said, I've been living with the same arm so long I've realized I do have a preference for a res. freq. around 10 Hz or 9.5 Hz rather than 7. I'm fully convinced it is the harmonic situation combined with the arm that informs my preference. Can't say if this would carry over to a different arm, though.

 

RE: Have some issues getting his calc to work..., posted on May 10, 2022 at 13:39:54
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2327
Joined: January 11, 2011
My preference mirrors yours - my best sounding cartridge matches give around 9Hz to 10Hz (by measurement) in an SL1200 arm with Jelco HS20/25 (12g mass). The oft quoted 8 to 12 Hz range is just a recommendation that clears the warp frequency range and gives a sufficient margin below 20Hz. Getting too close to the audible range gives a "flutter" effect on low frequency test tones around 20Hz. I had some very low compliance Stanton styli that gave a resonance around 17Hz (likely duds!!) for which I was able to verify these effects for myself.

The LF resonance modulates the VTA and SRA. If you do spectral analysis you see sidebands on either side of the groove signal frequency components - the higher the Q the higher amplitude of the sidebands. Not only does this contribute to signal colouration, but the instability of the cantilever increases the IMD and can degrade tracking ability very significantly.

Knowing the actual effective mass of the arm requires specific knowledge of all masses (i.e cartridge/headshell/fixings/counterweight) plus the VTF set. This is almost never given so the published specification can be a little misleading when comparing calculations and objective measurement with a test disc.
For example with the TA-110 arm, Ortofon quote the effective mass of the arm as 3.5g (without headshell)....then tell you the headshell mass is 15.5g. The missing information is the fixing mass and the cartridge mass and the final counterweight position for the VTF you require.

One has to make some really big changes to headshell and counterweight masses to make any difference, hence why most people find they don't have a problem when they try and mate their cartridge despite the calculations telling them otherwise. To compensate for the higher mass of the Jelco HS20/25, I added a suitable auxiliary counter weight which shifts the main counterweight closer to the arm bearing which improves things with higher compliance cartridges.
You could experiment with that.


Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Jelco, posted on May 10, 2022 at 13:43:12
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2327
Joined: January 11, 2011
Yes, it's kind of sad that Jelco shut up shop!!
I was curious to look into one if my experiment with a TS-550S proved successful if one ever turned up - simple job to pull out the old arm and slip in the new! I could also have a pre-balanced setup with a different alignment.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

Link, posted on May 10, 2022 at 14:07:27
viridian
Audiophile

Posts: 7899
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: May 26, 2005
Contributor
  Since:
February 1, 2012
Anthony:

Link below:

Jelco has been a mixed bag for me, but then again my experience is quite different as regards compliance as well. To each his own.

I hope you are doing well and was going to email for some guidance, if I can only remember what it was that I wanted to speak with you about...-.don't get old.

Hope this link to a used/new Jelco helps. No knowledge of the seller, etc. etc.

Best,
Marty

 

+1, posted on May 10, 2022 at 15:23:29
jupiterboy
Audiophile

Posts: 716
Location: Western New York
Joined: June 7, 2009
I've got a stock of mounting hardware ranging from .2g to 2g and that's where I'm at. I'm always listening to horns, and those very hot moments and trying to not add anything to the recording under that stress. If that is sweet, everything seems to work. Also, gain matching—it makes a big difference.

 

RE: Link, posted on May 10, 2022 at 15:53:31
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2327
Joined: January 11, 2011
Thanks Marty! I'm doing well - managed to dodge the bullets and avoided getting Covid so far although a new wave is likely to start here soon now that the borders are opening up again.
Don't worry, I'm sure whatever you wanted to ask me about will come back to you and you can PM me - always happy to hear from you :)
Cheers
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

Page processed in 0.027 seconds.