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Analog news from the NY Audio Show

50.138.159.171
Posted on April 16, 2012 at 16:57:56
Rob Doorack
Audiophile

Posts: 5378
Joined: May 26, 2000
 I suppose the biggest news for analog fans at the NY Audio Show was the debut of VPI's new entry level model, the Traveler. It seemed to be on static display only and there wasn't any word about price. More details at the link below.

Soundsmith's Peter Ledermann announced a new top of the line cartridge that resulted from a collaboration with Frank Schoeder. The Hyperion's most notable feature is that the cantilever is a cactus needle! I had a long talk with the ever affable Mr. Ledermann about this. He said that cactus needles have a number of advantages over the materials commonly used for cantilevers. According to Peter, metal and jewel cantilevers are alive with energy reflecting up and down the tube - energy that he says can be measured. A cactus needle on the other hand is both stiff (it's formed from longitudinal stacked columnar fibers) and self - damping (the fibers are connected with desicated resin). The Hyperion will cost $7500 but that price includes free retipping for life.

 

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RE: Analog news from the NY Audio Show, posted on April 16, 2012 at 17:22:57
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Cactus needle, interesting ... wonder it this will start something ... e.g. carbon fiber perhaps?


 

RE: Analog news from the NY Audio Show, posted on April 16, 2012 at 17:40:03
Marc Almirall
Audiophile

Posts: 292
Location: San Diego, Ca.
Joined: August 3, 2009
 Hey Rob. The traveler is certainly cool looking. I've seen pictures of it spinning at the show over the weekend though, so maybe it was just not in play as much as the classic 4 they were also debuting.

From posts on their faceshmook page, Mat Weisfield has said a few times that price will be $1299 for the 'table and arm combo. Not sure why they'd be tight lipped about price at the show.

Always was a big fan of your writing for Listener! :)

 

Cactus needles...., posted on April 16, 2012 at 18:05:04
Ripple
Audiophile

Posts: 536
Location: Connecticut
Joined: September 30, 2001
 I wonder if Ledermann has run them for over 1000 hours or more. I can see the columnar fibers flexing over time and losing their stiffness unless they are somehow treated on the outside to maintain their stiffness (diamond coating perhaps?). Someone previously mentioned carbon fiber cantilevers. I would go a step further and anticipate a hybrid wood fiber impregnated carbon fiber being used as a cantilever. Analog materials science marches forward.

Ripple

 

RE: Analog news from the NY Audio Show, posted on April 16, 2012 at 18:33:53
cactuscowboy@bresnan.net
Audiophile

Posts: 7738
Location: Powell, Wyoming
Joined: July 23, 2007
 The preferred terminology is "cactus spine" if one wants to get fussy about it.

No question that most cactus spines are stiff, lightweight and very durable. They must endure the extremes of weather in harsh deserts. Seems like a great idea to use it for a cantilever.

This gets the Cactus Cowboy 'seal of approval.' :-)

 

I can't tell if that mat is felt or rubber, posted on April 16, 2012 at 18:35:37
violinist3
Audiophile

Posts: 2922
Location: San Diego California
Joined: August 7, 2003
 If it's felt then vpi is venturing into a different territory.

 

RE: Analog news from the NY Audio Show, posted on April 16, 2012 at 19:08:50
coffee-phil
Audiophile

Posts: 1444
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Joined: January 7, 2010
 If my memory is correct cactus has been used as the actual stylus in the early days of the gramophone. Nimbus claimed that acoustic playpack was the way to go when transfering old acoustic gramophone records to CD. They built a monster acoustic machine with a gigantic horn. I'm pretty sure they used a cactus stylus which they called a "thorn". I have linked a picture of the machine. Look near the bottom of the page.

Phil

 

RE: Analog news from the NY Audio Show, posted on April 16, 2012 at 20:19:13
gotoma8
Audiophile

Posts: 482
Location: Bay Area
Joined: April 20, 2003
 well, they can't say that it costs a lot...and better charge less...cause one cactus plant will provide a years worth of cantilevers!

 

RE: Cactus needles...., posted on April 16, 2012 at 20:27:46
cactuscowboy@bresnan.net
Audiophile

Posts: 7738
Location: Powell, Wyoming
Joined: July 23, 2007
 Spines are among the most variable structures on cacti. They vary in size, shape, and color. Some are thin, hairlike and flexible while some are thick, rigid and shaped like fish hooks. Others are flat and papery. Most are awl-like, stiff and straight or slightly curved. Consider that there are dozens or perhaps hundreds of cacti species that might produce spines suitable for construction of phono cartridge cantilevers. I have no doubt that if selected carefully the appropriate cactus spine would last virtually forever in use as a cantilever.

I find this topic endlessly fascinating. What species of cacti produce the "best" spines for cantilever use? That's not going to be an easy question to answer!




Echinocereus engelmannii var. nicholii



A selection of columnar cacti species.



Echinocereus chloranthus var. russanthus

 

When I was a kid,, posted on April 17, 2012 at 05:10:41
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 11689
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
 I used to use actual thorns as styli in my Silvertone 78 record player. As opposed to steel needles. The thorns were from a plant (species unknown) outside my bedroom window. I thought they sounded better and they certainly reduced the omnipresent surface noise.

 

In fact, we need a cactus species spine compliance study . . ., posted on April 17, 2012 at 12:01:03
hiatt@alaska.net
Audiophile

Posts: 7508
Joined: December 9, 2000
Contributor
  Since: November 1, 2005



I use cactus needles on my victrola to reduce record wear, but the spines also act like a soft tone needle. I believe that means the spine is internally softer(less rigid) and reduces the amplitude of the sound. It would seem that spines would add another complicating variable to the cartridge compliance. With spines you would now have to worry about the compliance of the spine and the compliance of the elastomer bearing.

 

So why doesn't he use cactus cant's for all his carts? And....., posted on April 17, 2012 at 14:52:28
Rick W
 I wonder, how are the cactus spines shaped/cut for cantilever use?

 

From what I've read, posted on April 17, 2012 at 15:25:26
kavakidd
Audiophile

Posts: 20316
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: April 15, 2004
 it appears they are fine fibers bonded together in a (sort of) carbon fiber configuration.
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

RE: From what I've read, posted on April 17, 2012 at 17:50:23
Rob Doorack
Audiophile

Posts: 5378
Joined: May 26, 2000
 >>they are fine fibers bonded together in a (sort of) carbon fiber configuration<<

That's how nature makes them.

 

Yeah, I kinda doubted the cant. material accounted for the $7500 price. nt, posted on April 17, 2012 at 18:43:12
Rick W
 nt

 

RE: Yeah, I kinda doubted the cart. material accounted for the $7500 price. nt, posted on April 18, 2012 at 06:56:20
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 12561
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
 Each cactus needle is removed, by hand, by a 21 year old geisha trained female technician. The cantilever material is then immersed in 50 year old Scotch (a secret blend of the finest of single malts) for no less than 47 days. It is then smoked over a fire of 1000 year old bonzai trimmings. Basted frequently with 150 year old Saki and then, towards finishing time, basted with the finest of Blanton's Reserve Bourbon, no less than 25 years old (aged in the barrels made from ancient pine taken from the hills of Nevada).

The finishing machine work is done in a secret laboratory 2 miles underground, and then shipped by molecular/electron "cannons" to the Soundsmith facility where the final touches, and mounting of the stylus is performed.

You can understand the cost involved.
******************************

Music. Window or mirror?

 

Liar!, posted on April 18, 2012 at 07:24:04
Muzikmike
Reviewer

Posts: 12561
Location: SoCentral PA
Joined: December 19, 2007
 You were never a kid!

Although you were younger at birth than I was.

Statistics kept in a vault under the Pentagon prove you were 50 yrs. old when you were born. Impressive, but I surpassed you easily, I was 90 when I was born.
******************************

Music. Window or mirror?

 

Wow, is that the "New Math" I kept hearing about ..., posted on April 18, 2012 at 07:42:40
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 11689
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
 ... back in my sixties?

 

"free retipping for life", posted on April 18, 2012 at 12:46:29
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Perhaps the cantilever just grows back by itself, if you break it. Do they supply pruning shears?

 

Before people start making fun of the new SoundSmith cartridge..., posted on April 18, 2012 at 13:06:37
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 Rest assured that Peter Ledermann would not choose any material or any design approach unless it actually made some engineering sense.

Peter is a very nice and dedicated audiophile who makes quality products. I have yet to read one review that says anything bad about SoundSmith products and if you limit the list to cartridges, Peter makes some of the finest cartridges available.

He is not a crackpot that is trying to make gullable vinylphiles spend their cash on something goofy. He actually cares about his products and the people who use them.

I'm sure Peter tires of the pokes at his products but he is too nice a guy to say anything about it. Peter makes great stuff and if it weren't worth the money he asks, he wouldn't sell it.

Ed


Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

RE: "free retipping for life", posted on April 18, 2012 at 14:28:26
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 Don't be silly! If it wears out or breaks, they kill you. (Just kidding!)

Dave

 

As far as I can tell, you don't own any SS carts, just a Denon *retipped* by SS., posted on April 18, 2012 at 14:57:05
Rick W
 Having heard a shitload of hifi products lauded by various reviewers which my own ears told me sounded mediocre or worse, and which IMO were considerably over-priced, I reserve judgment regarding how Ledermann's carts sound until I actually hear some of 'em in a system I'm at least somewhat familiar with. Ed, have you heard a few SS carts in such a system?

At any rate, like so many hifi companies SS seems to be coming up with products that are more & more expensive.

 

RE: Before people start making fun of the new SoundSmith cartridge..., posted on April 18, 2012 at 18:57:56
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Whatever happened to the Soundsmith CartRight cartridge alignment analyzer?

Thanks,
John Elison

 

Haha - good one, Mike! :-)) nt, posted on April 18, 2012 at 19:09:45
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12550
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 .

 

RE: As far as I can tell, you don't own any SS carts, just a Denon *retipped* by SS., posted on April 18, 2012 at 19:36:31
cactuscowboy@bresnan.net
Audiophile

Posts: 7738
Location: Powell, Wyoming
Joined: July 23, 2007
 Dunno what Ed's exact experience is, but I own and use a Soundsmith SMMC2 cartridge. It is an excellent cartridge. Although it's one of the most expensive I own, I consider it a great value for the money, given its performance.

I do agree with everything Ed says in his post. Soundsmith is a first rate company, producing excellent product at a competitive price.

I make no claim to being an expert in cartridge design, but I know something about cacti and intuitively I recognize the merits of using cactus spines for cantilevers.

 

Good question..., posted on April 19, 2012 at 08:17:08
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 I wish I had a good answer.

Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

Thanks..., posted on April 19, 2012 at 08:46:37
EdAInWestOC
Audiophile

Posts: 6828
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Joined: December 18, 2003
 You saved me having to say anything at all.

I own you a cold one,
Ed
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

 

RE: Analog news from the NY Audio Show, posted on April 19, 2012 at 09:21:32
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3538
Joined: April 23, 2007
 I suspect "retipping for life" is because the thorns are so inexpensive and that they wear quickly. I live in Arizona - my garden is loaded with many kinds of cactie,....many times they serve as an overnight treat for the javalinas, and other wildlife in the area who find those nasty spikes quite tasty and enjoyable.

 

RE: Before people start making fun of the new SoundSmith cartridge..., posted on April 19, 2012 at 11:04:31
WOStantonCS100
Manufacturer

Posts: 186
Location: East Coast
Joined: January 4, 2012
 Well said!!! Having had exchanges with Peter and living with the positive changes his work has made to my everyday music listening experience, I am in complete agreement.

 

Yes, that would be consistent with their warranty, posted on April 19, 2012 at 19:36:06
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10912
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 nt

 

SoundSmith Cartright, posted on April 20, 2012 at 04:40:47
Rob Doorack
Audiophile

Posts: 5378
Joined: May 26, 2000
 The Cartright was displayed at the NY Audio Show too. I didn't get to ask Peter about it as someone else came in the room and started talking to him. I don't see anything on the Soundsmith website about it so you should call the company if you're interested.



 

RE: Analog news from the NY Audio Show, posted on April 20, 2012 at 07:21:34
Rob Doorack
Audiophile

Posts: 5378
Joined: May 26, 2000
 >>I suspect "retipping for life" is because the thorns are so inexpensive and that they wear quickly<<

The cactus needle is the cantilever, not the stylus. I'm not sure if cantilevers wear out, or, if they do, if one made from something that's analogous to natural carbon fiber would wear out faster than aluminum or ruby or other traditional cantilever materials. I am sure that when Peter Ledermann said "retipping for life" he meant replacing the diamond stylus and not just the cantilever.

 

RE: Cactus needles...., posted on April 20, 2012 at 13:39:30
Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 3502
Location: Ipswich, MA
Joined: May 4, 2004
 Nanotechnology ought to be able to allow some novel materials to be fabricated. Something hard and good wearing like diamond, but have the vibration suppression of carbon fiber - or cactus needles!

Neat to see people showing that something can be done!
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

 

RE: Analog news from the NY Audio Show, posted on April 20, 2012 at 17:49:27
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 Pictures all over the VPI Facebook page.


Christopher

Qui tacet consentit.

 

Right On!, posted on April 21, 2012 at 00:45:43
AlbumAddictED
Audiophile

Posts: 2317
Location: Sacramento CALIFORNIA
Joined: January 3, 2008
 WELL SAID, Ed. That sums it up nicely, as far as I am concerned.

"THE OTHER Inmate" - Ed
----------------------------------------
"Some Folks Need An Education ... Don't Give Up Or We'll Lose The Nation" C. 1970 MARK FARNER of Grand Funk Railroad from "Sin's A Good Man's Brother"

 

RE: Before people start making fun of the new SoundSmith cartridge..., posted on April 21, 2012 at 02:38:33
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 John, Spoke with Peter recently. It is my understanding that orders were few & far between.

John, you may remember that Peter participated in our in-depth investigation regarding the geometry of the JMW 12 series arms a year or 2 ago.


Christopher

Qui tacet consentit.

 

RE: SoundSmith Cartright, posted on April 21, 2012 at 02:40:32
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 It was a non-operational model displayed at the NYC AUdio SHow.


Christopher

Qui tacet consentit.

 

I had 78's when I was a kid too, posted on April 23, 2012 at 12:49:48
richardl
Audiophile

Posts: 3555
Joined: September 5, 2002
 but, I had a close n' play with a "real" ceramic cartridge for those records. the needle seemed to destroy them rather quickly as I recall. I probably should have tried a cactus needle. Not valuable records though, mostly Winnie the Pooh if I remember correctly. Of course I wasn't in my 60s then, it was the '60s! ;-)

 

RE: Analog news from the NY Audio Show, posted on April 25, 2012 at 20:10:58
vpiindustries
Manufacturer

Posts: 51
Location: New Jersey
Joined: February 26, 2012



Hey guys! Sorry for not stopping by sooner, been playing catch up at VPI since the show and HW and I have been taking care of the finishing touches for the Traveler. Just wanted to clear some things up and answer questions :)

We did use the Traveler at the New York Show however, we were also playing the Classic 4, so pending upon when you came in you were either hearing the Traveler or the Classic 4.

We did have a static display in the other room but that was of a Scout Turntable (my fault, thought it would be cool to have it sitting there instead people thought it was a Traveler =P) Next to that display we had a tribute to my mom so people could take a moment when they weren't listening to read and help us remember her.

The price point for the Traveler is $1,299.00 and if anyone couldn't find information at the show than that might have been when we ran out of flyers and I had to reprint them, good learning experience for me and shows, yay!

We will also offer the Travel complete with a cart for (I believe) $1,500.00.

June 1st we are shipping out standard black Traveler Tables, in July (prob starting around 4th of July) we plan to release the table in red, white, and blue. We do plan to release the table in other colors down the road but we will see what happens. We are also offerign a chance to win a free Traveler on our facebook.

We had a lot of fun at the New York show. Fun for me meeting and re-meeting a lot of you there and also having a chance to keep mom's memory alive through this industry!

Hope I cleared some things up and provided some answers :)

Thanks!
MW
---
Regardless of what table you buy or own as long as you're spinning vinyl you're doing the right thing!

 

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