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How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?

73.85.76.139
Posted on July 28, 2024 at 13:05:36
HiOnFi
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Location: Florida
Joined: January 11, 2004
 I acquired a hi-end pair of speaker cables that lack name or direction. My understanding is that this is determined by comparing resistance, but how is it measured, and what tool is needed to do so?

 

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RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 29, 2024 at 10:16:41
Mick Wolfe
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  Since: September 4, 2000
 You can measure resistance with a basic multi-meter. What you'll most likely discover is that the resistance of cable with no directional arrows will be equal regardless of orientation.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 29, 2024 at 14:25:08
ABliss
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Contributor
  Since: August 3, 2002
 If there is no indication, just choose a direction and keep using them in that direction. If there is any writing on them, I would use them in the direction the writing reads, from amp to speaker?

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 04:41:04
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
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 So you haven't actually measured cables yourself, I take it, you're just assuming.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 04:50:54
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 But you're assuming the "correct direction" is in the direction of the writing. Most cable manufacturers don't control cables for direction during manufacture so you're odds are 50-50 of getting it right.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 05:29:13
HiOnFi
Audiophile

Posts: 1703
Location: Florida
Joined: January 11, 2004
 THANKS GEOFF, BUT DO YOU HAVE AN ANSWER

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 05:32:53
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 11422
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 whatever Geoff says look for other guidance here. Give it time for others to answer your questions



 

Maybe Story has time to figure it out, I'd give him ten years or so, Nt, posted on July 30, 2024 at 05:42:31
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

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 Nt

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 06:30:42
HiOnFi
Audiophile

Posts: 1703
Location: Florida
Joined: January 11, 2004
 As I stated in my original post no writing on cable jacket

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 07:48:56
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 I have explained this directionality issue with wire and fuses a thousand times on this forum. Cut me some slack, Jack. Get some AudioQuest cables, sell your present ones, and be done with it.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 09:27:04
Mick Wolfe
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  Since: September 4, 2000
 I certainly haven't measured "his" cables. I forgot what brand/model they even were. That said, I have measured a set of knockoff Nordost Valhalla's that had no direction arrows. They measured an equal miniscule resistance in both directions. Bottom line, this whole post is a non issue looking to solve problem that doesn't exist. The OP should simply hook them up and listen. Reference that direction with a Sharpie and reverse direction. Listen again in the opposite direction. They're most likely going to sound exactly the same regardless of which direction is chosen. If not, pick the direction that wins the battle.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 09:29:51
sayntjack
Audiophile

Posts: 110
Location: North Vancouver, BC
Joined: July 4, 2005
 The "correct" direction is the one that sounds best. If your system doesn't have sufficient resolution you will not hear a difference. There are no instruments other than your ears to determine the "correct" direction of speaker cables.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 09:41:56
Mick Wolfe
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  Since: September 4, 2000
 The only real value of the "direction of the writing" is to have a consistent directional reference if you happen to swap cables frequently. IOW, it's just a manner of orienting the cables in the same way( direction) consistently.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 10:00:11
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
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 Consistent? Yes, consistently wrong.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 10:20:02
Mick Wolfe
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  Since: September 4, 2000
 Maybe....maybe not ;)

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 10:57:26
HiOnFi
Audiophile

Posts: 1703
Location: Florida
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 No wonder many complain about you. I on the other hand have bought lots of products from you over the years. Thanks for nothing.

 

not to mention up,down or in and out../nt, posted on July 30, 2024 at 13:07:19
walkstoslow
Audiophile

Posts: 322
Joined: November 18, 2012
 nt

 

Lost legionaries. Nt, posted on July 30, 2024 at 13:19:44
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Nt

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 13:39:33
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10984
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 If no writing of any kind, how do you know they are "high end"?
If the manufacturer did not label the cables for directionality, then there is no guarantee that using the direction of the writing (what writing?) gives any clue to directionality, if any. So in the end, just hook them up, choose a direction, and listen. Then after several days, reverse the direction. To get really anal, you would need to do each channel as a separate experiment, since we don't know if the maker had any direction in mind.

 

Good to see that at lease you got it right...nt, posted on July 30, 2024 at 16:51:30
ABliss
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 Nt.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 16:53:50
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1567
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Contributor
  Since: August 3, 2002
 Well if we are so wrong, why don't you tell him how to be 100% right.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 30, 2024 at 16:55:52
HiOnFi
Audiophile

Posts: 1703
Location: Florida
Joined: January 11, 2004
 Trust me, they are. Been in hi-end audio 4+ decades, including owning a store

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 31, 2024 at 02:30:23
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 There are four possible combinations for connecting two identical unmarked cables. But only one is the correct combination. Listening should reveal the correct combination.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 31, 2024 at 02:35:27
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 "Having 4+ decades in this hobby" is a well-known logical fallacy. So is owning a store. :-)

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 31, 2024 at 02:42:06
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 As I just pointed out in another post today on this thread there are many combinations for two identical unmarked cables. But only one combination is correct, where both cables are in the correct (best sounding) direction. Listening is the best way to figure it all out. Ditto interconnects if they are unmarked and identical.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 31, 2024 at 02:45:09
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Spare me your angst.

 

A new lease on life? Nt, posted on July 31, 2024 at 05:07:57
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Nt

 

What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 31, 2024 at 07:42:12
Aspheric
Audiophile

Posts: 173
Joined: March 12, 2001
 I have been following the two threads on speaker wire reluctant to enter the fray. Cable is a topic that rivals political discussion.

Here's what works for me. Locate a strong enough magnifying glass or microscope and examine the end of the wire. You will see how the wire was pulled through the sizing die. Go with the direction of the pull.

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 31, 2024 at 08:01:11
HiOnFi
Audiophile

Posts: 1703
Location: Florida
Joined: January 11, 2004
 Thanks. The problem is the I would need to cut the shrink away, itself not a big deal, but I don't have a proper soldering iron and would need to buy shrink wrap, again not a big deal, but the easy answer would be knowing how to measure for resistance and with what device

 

The opposite of the pull direction is the correct direction. Nt, posted on July 31, 2024 at 08:04:27
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Nt

 

RE: Good to see that at lease you got it right...nt, posted on July 31, 2024 at 11:02:31
Mick Wolfe
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Posts: 3453
Location: AZ
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  Since: September 4, 2000
 Thx. I'm glad someone understood. I was only trying to say the direction of anything written on the cable simply gives one a visual reference point for.... reversing the cable to audition in the opposite direction or maintaining its current direction.

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 31, 2024 at 11:26:41
Mick Wolfe
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Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
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  Since: September 4, 2000
 There is no need to destroy the cable. This would give new meaning to the term "fool's errand". Measuring the resistance (ohms setting) only requires a basic multi-meter. If you have 40 yrs. of experience in this hobby, none of this should be unchartered territory. In fact, with that much experience in the hobby, one would think you'd have hooked up the cables and listened by now.... at least in one direction. Listening to the cable is the only final arbitrator anyway.

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 31, 2024 at 12:34:08
HiOnFi
Audiophile

Posts: 1703
Location: Florida
Joined: January 11, 2004
 I know, but electricity, like my inability to play any musical instruments is an Achilles heel. That said I do have a multi-meter. I can probably find a tutorial on YouTube

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on July 31, 2024 at 14:54:25
Mick Wolfe
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Posts: 3453
Location: AZ
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Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 If it makes you feel any better, I couldn't play a musical instrument to save my life either. That said, measuring resistance is MUCH easier. Yet simply listening to the cable to see if it's even worthy is the easiest of all. Just try the cable in different configurations referencing each one as to establish a baseline. My guess is that it's going to sound very similar no matter how its hooked up, but that's just a guess.

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when nno Indicators?, posted on August 1, 2024 at 03:03:24
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 "My guess is that it's going to sound very similar no matter how it's hooked up, but that's just a guess."

Self fulfilling prophecy..

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on August 1, 2024 at 03:45:52
HiOnFi
Audiophile

Posts: 1703
Location: Florida
Joined: January 11, 2004
 I noted in a previous response, access is contortionist difficult (especially for a 70+ yo, plus, short of marking each cable, there's no way to tell direction as a starting point

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on August 1, 2024 at 04:16:59
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 HiFi Tuning, German fuse manufacturer, employed a big technology company, a third party, to perform measurements for fuses, measured voltage drop across the fuse both directions, HIFI fuses and other high end fuses and stock fuses. Both cryo'd fuses and uncryo'd fuses.

The differences in voltage drop, conductivity, were found to be *very small* but not zero. BUT the differences were always consistent with direction, the smaller resistance indicating correct direction. The HiFi report noted that the audible differences were much greater than small differences in resistance would indicate.

 

RE: Good to see that at lease you got it right...nt, posted on August 1, 2024 at 05:14:37
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Agree, like fuses.

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on August 1, 2024 at 05:51:37
HiOnFi
Audiophile

Posts: 1703
Location: Florida
Joined: January 11, 2004
 Thank you. Still, don't you think it's worth the effort to measure resistance?

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on August 1, 2024 at 06:46:39
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17684
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 If you put AC across a fuse then the voltage drop will be the same either direction.

If you put DC across the fuse and measure a difference, one direction vs. the other, how does that tell you which direction is correct for AC.

"HiFi Tuning, German fuse manufacturer, employed a big technology company, a third party, to perform measurements for fuses"

Do you believe they really did that?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on August 1, 2024 at 07:00:43
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 I never said that. Good luck with all of that, however.

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on August 1, 2024 at 07:36:15
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Can you prove they didn't? Of course you can't.

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on August 1, 2024 at 20:47:06
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17684
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 Can you prove they did? Of course you can't.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on August 1, 2024 at 21:12:48
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 I didn't realize you were so big on conspiracies. That's not very scientific of you.

 

RE: How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on August 2, 2024 at 11:54:01
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10984
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 And so might be the idea that wires inherently have directionality. But there are too many believers for me to want to come across as a nihilist.

 

Search this forum and 200 records pop up for the word directionality. Nt. , posted on August 2, 2024 at 12:02:52
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Nt

 

RE: What Works - How to Determine Speaker Direction when no Indicators?, posted on August 2, 2024 at 12:46:43
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17684
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 True science questions everything and demands concrete evidence.

Do you have any? I mean about anything you believe. Do you have any concrete evidence or just your opinion? (because you "heard" it)

I think you should watch this and then think about the full ramifications of it as it applies to audio and sonic impressions (and, by extension, sonic opinions (beliefs)).







View YouTube Video



Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Like I said..., posted on August 2, 2024 at 13:10:55
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10984
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Far be it from me to go against such a strong base of believers. And it's not that I don't believe wires can have directionality; it's that it was never convincingly demonstrated to me.

I surely do not believe that measuring DC resistance in both directions is going to determine directionality for audio purposes. In fact, if DCR is different in one direction vs the other (for a straight wire), that is due to experimental error.

 

Huh?! What believers? Are you hot dogging me?, posted on August 2, 2024 at 13:51:49
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Nt

 

Oh, geez, here we go again. , posted on August 3, 2024 at 04:52:33
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 I learned my lesson, never try to change the mind of someone who's overly skeptical, he made is mind up long before any evidence was offered. And he will ignore or dispute any evidence contrary to his belief. It's the old Brer Fox and Tar Baby routine.

 

are you talking about yourself?, posted on August 3, 2024 at 08:40:14
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17684
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Originality is not your strong suit. , posted on August 3, 2024 at 08:53:02
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Better stick to tried and true phony baloney.

 

I guess you don't have an answer, you could have just said so., posted on August 3, 2024 at 12:00:56
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17684
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

I have an answer for everything - except for why you're stalking me. Nt, posted on August 3, 2024 at 12:39:02
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Nt

 

Speaker cables are not diodes, posted on August 4, 2024 at 12:03:27
emailtim
Audiophile

Posts: 6787
Joined: July 2, 2017
 Speaker cables carry AC so making them directional makes no sense.

The drivers need to move BOTH ways.
.

2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

Drivers move both ways, that's true. But.., posted on August 6, 2024 at 12:40:44
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 But they don't move both ways at the same time. Therefore, both + and - wires should be controlled for directionality for best results. Confucius say always put best foot forward.

 

???, posted on August 6, 2024 at 12:46:05
emailtim
Audiophile

Posts: 6787
Joined: July 2, 2017
 That made no sense.

What happens when drivers are reversed (backwards firing) or push pull ?

Same situation, AC, not DC.

Both + and - have to carry the alternating current.

Again, they are not diodes or Tesla valves.
.

2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

Voice coil, posted on August 6, 2024 at 13:46:13
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 One wire is connected to one side of the voice coil, the other wire is connected to the other end. When the signal comes in on the + side the diaphragm moves out. At that instant, the signal traveling on the other wire (-) away from the voice coil does nothing. That direction is the "bad" direction. It's the interaction of the magnetic field part of the signal with the big magnet structure that moves the diaphragm.current doesn't travel in a conductor, it's a scalar quantity, it's a calculated quantity.

 

Again, push pull, reversed drivers, dual magnets, etc. ..., posted on August 6, 2024 at 14:29:21
emailtim
Audiophile

Posts: 6787
Joined: July 2, 2017
 I have magnets on both sides of the diaphragms and ribbons.

I also have push pull bass which one driver moves "forward" while the other moves "backwards" in a force cancellation configuration and linear fore/aft motion averaging.

Both +/- push and both +/- pull AT THE SAME TIME.

Both need the same electrical signals rendering the notion of "directional" wires nonsense.
.

2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

You're not following., posted on August 6, 2024 at 15:58:39
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 The diaphragm moves in and out at the rate of instantaneous audio signal, each wire procides 1/2 of the complete audio signal. When electrons move toward the voice coil the electrons on the other wire move in the opposite direction. When electrons move away from the voice coil you can ignore, it. We only care about electrons moving toward the voice coil, they're the ones that make the diaphragm move. Follow?

 

RE: You're not following., posted on August 6, 2024 at 16:20:43
emailtim
Audiophile

Posts: 6787
Joined: July 2, 2017
 NOPE:

+ MAGNET PUSH -->VOICE_COIL--> PULL MAGNET

- MAGNET PULL <--VOICE_COIL<-- PUSH MAGNET

If what you are saying is true:

Placing a DC battery on a speaker with correct polarity it will move forwards.

If you put the same DC battery on in reverse polarity, the driver won't move backwards. That is NOT true.

No voltage moves the driver to the center location.

.

2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

Huh? , posted on August 7, 2024 at 03:27:28
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Of course the battery moves the diaphragm. It moves out and stays out. That's why two wires AC are needed for audio. The IN and OUT signals come in on different wires, + and - . The signal alternates on both + and - wires. It alternates at the instantaneous audio frequency. Electrons move only very slightly at one time in an AC circuit, about one millionth of an inch at a time.

 

"The IN and OUT signals", posted on August 7, 2024 at 17:12:49
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17684
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 LMAO

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Voice coil, posted on August 7, 2024 at 20:54:20
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10984
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 In an electromagnetic driver, such as the one you're describing, the audio signal is per se AC. Because it is alternating current, it is in effect moving back and forth (if you will) in the stationary magnetic field of the permanent magnet structure, which is held fast by the basket. Thus the electromagnetic force developed by the audio signal in the coil drives motion of the diaphragm, because the coil is attached to the diaphragm. The polarity of that current is changing according to the signal driving it; that pushes and pulls the diaphragm, in one direction or the other. Excursions of the diaphragm in both directions (in and out) are responses to forces in both directions.

 

You're close. Very close., posted on August 8, 2024 at 02:23:38
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 A magnetic field is created when current (moving electrons) travels though a coil. That magnetic field is what interacts with the large magnet of the speaker and makes the diaphragm move. Electromotive force is what pushes the electrons, not the diaphragm. In reality electromotive force is not a force, units are volts. Does that surprise you?

Current is a calculated quantity, it's a scalar, so has no direction. The only thing that's moving is the electrons, one millionth of an inch at a time.

 

He who laughs last laughs best. Nt, posted on August 8, 2024 at 02:33:38
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Nt

 

RE: You're close. Very close., posted on August 8, 2024 at 20:35:59
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10984
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 So many wrongs it's silly to go further. To anyone else, there are many educational videos on the work of Maxwell and Faraday that are worth consulting. My main point was to refute the notion that the "electron" on its way back to the amplifier is per se a misconception.

 

RE: You're close. Very close., posted on August 8, 2024 at 22:24:09
Geoffkait
Manufacturer

Posts: 441
Joined: July 2, 2024
 Whatever. Thanks for trying.

 

RE: You're close. Very close., posted on October 13, 2024 at 17:57:01
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17684
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "a current of one ampere is one coulomb of charge going past a given point per second"
How is that not direction?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

So many wrongs it's silly to go further., posted on October 19, 2024 at 16:49:41
Jotaro
Audiophile

Posts: 180
Location: Kyushu Japan
Joined: June 6, 2024
 Best not to even start with that one.

Sometimes its just best to ignore.

J.

 

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