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Fuse direction?

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Posted on January 14, 2023 at 08:15:39
mojul
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Joined: March 10, 2020
 I have just bought Acme fuse(s) for my new amplifier (GamuT D 200) and have a question about fuse direction. The fuse now have 100+ hours on it, so I think it has (almost) burned in.

Now the question is, should the fuse direction be determined before burning in period or after?
My thinking is, that the fuse has only been burned in in one direction (I bought a spare fuse, so I have both options :-))


mojul

 

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RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 14, 2023 at 08:55:18
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Joined: September 26, 2013
 Fuses are not directional. And even if they were, it wouldn't make any difference in AC circuits.

Dave.

 

+1 nt, posted on January 14, 2023 at 09:01:24
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16703
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Turn it around, posted on January 14, 2023 at 11:21:07
hawkmoon
Audiophile

Posts: 871
Location: cleveland
Joined: July 11, 2003
 And listen! Read what HiFi tuning has to say about a fuses direction. Have fun!

 

RE: Turn it around, posted on January 14, 2023 at 13:55:44
mojul
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Joined: March 10, 2020
 Thank you all for responses!

I have visited HiFi-tuning.com, but could not find anything about fuse direction or even their own fuses...
On VHaudio, Audiogon and here on the Asylum:
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tweaks&m=212628&VT=T
they all claim to hear differences (on VHaudio they say that they are directional, but not if they themselves have tried it).


Hawkmoon could you please provide a link?
mojul

 

Synergistic says fuses are directional :), posted on January 14, 2023 at 14:44:12
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 5954
Joined: April 6, 2000
 From Synergistic FAQ:

"Q: Are fuses directional?

A: Yes, fuses are directional. Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse. If you do not know the direction of flow you should listen to the fuse inserted in both directions. One direction will sound more detailed. This is the correct way."

P.S. I did trial the Synergistic Purple fuses, in both directions, and did not feel they sounded different in either direction..

 

Fuse direction, posted on January 14, 2023 at 14:46:35
hawkmoon
Audiophile

Posts: 871
Location: cleveland
Joined: July 11, 2003
 Just do a search here"tweakers asylum" using hi fi tuning fuse and you will get dozens of posts. Enjoy the music also has several reviews of fuses and their sound as well. The easy thing is listen, then turn the fuse around, and listen again. Many choices out there. Enjoy

 

RE: Fuse direction review , posted on January 14, 2023 at 14:56:26
hawkmoon
Audiophile

Posts: 871
Location: cleveland
Joined: July 11, 2003
 Here's a good review

 

RE: Turn it around, posted on January 14, 2023 at 15:11:00
Joe Appierto
Audiophile

Posts: 1019
Location: Central NJ
Joined: January 3, 2004
 Hopefully, hawkmoon won't mind but here's the link. Go down a few pages for the Evaluation of Measurements.


Joe

 

Except when there is a naked King in the listening room (nt), posted on January 14, 2023 at 18:42:01
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2354
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 nt

 

Acme Audio Labs silver cryo fuse, posted on January 14, 2023 at 23:15:25
Luminator
Audiophile

Posts: 6587
Location: Bay Area
Joined: December 11, 2000



A small number of my audiophile acquaintances has tried the Acme Audio Labs silver cryo fuse, in a variety of gear.

I have one in the large, slow-blow, 3A value, for use in an Adcom GFA-6002. If you look really carefully, each end cap has different writing/logos. At least in the GFA-6002, fuses are directional. That is, the fuses will make the amp sound different, depending on which way the fuse is oriented.

No one close to me is an audiophile. Yet, all these non-audiophiles hear the difference(s) in fuse direction. In that Adcom GFA-6002, everyone prefers the AAL silver cryo, with the fuse value pointing or being closer to the rear panel.

Yet, I have an audiophile friend, whose ears I trust. Because the AAL fuses are affordable, he's been able to order specific values, for each of his components. In most of his components, he and other listeners do hear a difference, in fuse directionality. Yet, in some of his components, he doesn't detect any sonic differences, when swapping fuse direction. Just goes to show, that we have to experiment.

 

+1 , posted on January 15, 2023 at 00:34:55
Joe Appierto
Audiophile

Posts: 1019
Location: Central NJ
Joined: January 3, 2004
As Lummy says, this isn't a case of absolutes but you don't know until you try.



Joe

 

RE: +1 , posted on January 15, 2023 at 08:21:47
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Joined: September 26, 2013
 Except for the fact it is an absolute. Fuses are non-directional.
Listening evaluations are irrelevant.

Dave.

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 15, 2023 at 08:31:02
el34eh@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1554
Location: Michigan
Joined: September 6, 2003











I forgot where I found these photos?, but felt the need to save them into my photo gallery nonetheless.

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 15, 2023 at 08:35:55
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16703
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 How does those pictures tell you how the circuit is wired inside the chassis?

The line fuse is wired in series with the hot as the hot heads towards the power transformer. Not from hot to neutral.

Those pictures are meaningless.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Wait, is this fuse in a DC circuit?, posted on January 15, 2023 at 08:43:11
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16703
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "Electricity should flow from the left to the right when you view the fuse"

If the fuse is wired in the AC line between the wall outlet and the power supply for the unit, then the "electricity" is flowing one direction and then reversing and flowing the other direction. Rinse and repeat.

This is basic stuff.

One the other hand I had a good laugh.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: +2, posted on January 15, 2023 at 09:12:18
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 8644
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 the usual ones anyway. Who knows what's inside the boutique ones to account for any consistent perceived difference. I've never tried any



 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 15, 2023 at 09:31:17
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16703
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002



The fuse is operating in an AC circuit. The amplifier has two power transformers. The line fuse is between (in series with) the incoming AC hot side and one lead of the primary of each of the power transformer. Current will reverse direction twice each cycle. (120 times per second if the AC is 60Hz)

If the fuse was operating in a DC circuit then there might be a possibility that it could be directional.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: +2, posted on January 15, 2023 at 09:47:52
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Joined: September 26, 2013
 Consistent perceived differences?? Good one. :)

Any "fuse" that has a directional characteristic is no longer a fuse. It is some sort of gadget with a diode effect.

The problematic premise here is that many audiophiles consider fuses "tweaks." They are definitely not.

Dave.

 

RE: +2, posted on January 15, 2023 at 09:52:58
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 8644
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I posted a while ago if anyone took one of these boutiques apart and the only answer I got was "I will when one of them blows". So far nothing.

It doesn't seem likely being that they are so small but taking one apart might dispel the myths once and for all and put an end to it.



 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 15, 2023 at 10:56:20
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2903
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 "If the fuse was operating in a DC circuit then there might be a possibility that it could be directional."

Have you personally experienced DC circuit fuses that perform noticeably different when direction gets reversed?

What are the characteristics of the performance differences?

I'm assuming you're talking about "normal" fuses intended to prevent overcurrents with carefully engineered melting metal elements...

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 15, 2023 at 12:08:07
el34eh@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1554
Location: Michigan
Joined: September 6, 2003



I'd ask since you're saying they're meaningless, why don't you provide photos showing both sides?. Now that would be welcomed, as I'm quite certain if nothing else?, fuses are directional.

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 15, 2023 at 12:23:16
el34eh@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1554
Location: Michigan
Joined: September 6, 2003
 It came back to me where I found the photos, of which I'd think in said case both Tweek Geek | QSA which is an actual manufacturer of fuse, should know something on the subject, no?:

https://www.tweekgeek.com/quantum-science-audio-5-x-20mm-slow-blow-fuse/

 

normal fuses and ridiculousness , posted on January 15, 2023 at 14:26:07
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 8644
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 a Buss, Fusetron, or Littlefuse has an element inside it one half inches long ...that's for what used to be the standard size. I have cracked open a few over many years to see what the construction is and there is nothing in there to indicate that that small piece of wire soldered into both inside ends of the caps has anything to do with making a better sound if reversed. Only the addition of ingesting alcohol or drugs does that, or listening in the early morning and then listening in the evening after tweaking something like a 'normal fuse'. Just pulling a fuse out, cleaning the ends, and applying some Silclear or Deoxit will make a small difference.

And what about the specialty boutique types? Maybe, but I feel sorry for those who live for stuff like this instead of focusing on the god dam music.



 

There is a difference:, posted on January 15, 2023 at 15:25:11
hawkmoon
Audiophile

Posts: 871
Location: cleveland
Joined: July 11, 2003
 Read the results and draw your own conclusions. Great post!

 

+1 nt, posted on January 15, 2023 at 16:38:02
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16703
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 15, 2023 at 16:54:20
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16703
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "Have you personally experienced DC circuit fuses that perform noticeably different when direction gets reversed?"

No.

To me this is all very silly without a base line. The only way to tell if some fuses are better than others (and I think that is where we should start before we get into directionality) is to run a unit without a fuse and see what that sounds like (and tests like) and then see if we can even hear a difference when you put a fuse in for safety. If we can't hear that then the whole "directional fuse" question is moot.

How much of a voltage drop do you think happens across a fuse?

There are things that might make a theoretical difference but that does not automatically make them audible.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

That is what I was going to say., posted on January 15, 2023 at 17:00:16
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16703
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 I have had "hi end" wires on my bench and it seems that the manufactures made the wire wrong (high capacitance) just so the buyer would hear a difference and feel good about the expenditure.

Don't ask me what wires they were. It was a long time ago.

Has anyone measured one of these fancy fuses against a standard fuse to see what's up?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 15, 2023 at 17:37:57
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16703
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "why don't you provide photos showing both sides?"

What? I didn't show any pictures. At least I don't think I did.

The amp in question has the fuse holder as part of the IEC socket. The pictures you show do not so that is why I say they are meaningless.

Again, the fuse is wired in series with the primary winding of the two power transformers so I can't understand how your pictures tells us anything.

What evidence do you have that fuses are directional other than anecdotal?

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: There is a difference:, posted on January 15, 2023 at 18:06:34
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16703
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 44.47 vs 44.57 mOhms?

A difference of .0001 ohms?

At 1 amp (and that is where they were measuring) the voltage drop would be .04447 volts vs. .04457 volts.

So instead of having 119.95553 volts (assuming a 120 volt line from the wall socket) you would have 119.95543 volts feeding the primary winding of the power transformer. Oh the horror!

Do people really claim to be able to hear that?

Tre'

Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 15, 2023 at 18:18:07
el34eh@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 1554
Location: Michigan
Joined: September 6, 2003




Understood, yet once again said comments and photos were taken from Tweek Geek, showing the QSA based fuses of which I've purchased two ( black | light blue version# ) where both were tried both ways around, and worked better as shown in said illustrations.

I can only speak on what works in my system, as judged by my own ears being able to distinguish said sound based upon what's hear here, as the old adage goes YMMV seems to apply here, especially those saying the directionally of fuses doesn't matter.

 

Voltage drop, posted on January 16, 2023 at 04:20:35
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 9950
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 Below is a link to a post by Ralph of Atma-Sphere, regarding fuse direction, where he says perceived differences in sound are due to voltage drop. The less drop, the better the sound, according to him.

At the time, I misinterpreted his post to mean that the internal element of fuse itself was causing the voltage variation. When asking him about it when the subject came up again elsewhere, he explained that it was due to the amount of contact between the fuse and its holder. Apparently one direction often gives better contact than the other, and said, "Boutique fuses are a little better at this in general".

Note that I've never tried his suggestion, but the explanation always made more sense to me than those who believe in better alignment of the electrons from a $100 fuse, or some such thing.

 

RE: Voltage drop, posted on January 16, 2023 at 06:43:40
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Joined: September 26, 2013
 Ralph is generally pretty good with his comments, but that one was nonsensical.
Of course there is a minute drop in voltage across a fuse. But that voltage drop will not increase (or decrease) if the fuse is switched in orientation.....all other things being equal. You could measure voltage across a fuse, switch its direction and measure again. Do that 100 times and compare the results and there'd be no consistency at all regards direction.
This requires no subjective evaluation, no voltage measurements, no anything. It's implicitly obvious based on the conditions the fuse is operating in.

What we have here is schlock marketeers creating a belief in the audiophile brain and then selling a product to that belief. :)

Dave.

 

RE: +2, posted on January 16, 2023 at 08:20:20
old guy 42
Audiophile

Posts: 346
Location: Eastern Pa
Joined: August 12, 2012
Contributor
  Since: August 26, 2012






Well, here you go...-.
As you can see, it is a hifi tuning fuse.
If you like, I can send it to you for further inspection...-..

 

Not all fuses are positioned horizontally either..., posted on January 16, 2023 at 11:27:59
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 30651
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 So figuring out left/right AND/OR up/down/back/forth just... confuses things that much more.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Fuse bypass and $3000 fuses, posted on January 16, 2023 at 12:08:09
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 5954
Joined: April 6, 2000
 "is to run a unit without a fuse and see what that sounds like (and tests like) and then see if we can even hear a difference when you put a fuse in"

There are people claiming certain fuses sound BETTER than bypassing the fuse! Until I try it myself, I will not rule in or rule out the possibility, but it does nauseate me a little bit that fuses exist that cost near $3000...

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 16, 2023 at 14:11:04
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2903
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 OK. I see. Good points.

I'm skeptical the evidence from such experiments would support altering the original design in most cases but....

If the voltage drop, presumably caused by the fuse current modulating the element impedance, in audio equipment protection fuses, is noticably finding it's way into the audio signal in some pieces of gear.....and users truly have taken modifying some aspect of the safety design to overcome the damage it does to the products performance, maybe it would be best for everybody if that piece of gear would get removed from the market before someone gets hurt.

Edit: BTW definitely not holding my breath waiting for that piece of gear to surface as it would immediately be laughed off the market and out of existence and I am under the assumption that unqualified individuals, prone to monkeying with their safety circuits, being a bit stunned seems more likely.

 

RE: normal fuses and ridiculousness , posted on January 16, 2023 at 16:02:26
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2903
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 Yeah, I think I'm pretty much with you, man.

Just asking to try and be sure someone doesn't know of something I've never thought about.

You never know around here. maybe.

I kind of half expected something like for example fuses temp coefficient of resistance cropping up as a real time system performance variable needing managing in some products.

Not that I expect that's a common problem for reasonably designed circuits.....

 

RE: normal fuses and ridiculousness , posted on January 17, 2023 at 03:36:38
sony6060
Audiophile

Posts: 1255
Location: USA
Joined: August 8, 2014
 I am with TRE, fuse direction makes no difference same as cow dong makes no difference placed on speaker wires.

 

"Ralph is generally pretty good", posted on January 17, 2023 at 04:56:28
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 9950
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 I suppose Ralph's sensibilities are why I've hung onto his voltage drop explanation as at least some form of an explanation for my otherwise skeptic nature.

One other thing which hasn't been touched on in this thread, and the primary reason I haven't tried a boutique fuse for myself, is that I don't know if I can trust their ratings. I'm not willing to sacrifice an expensive amplifier because the 4 amp boutique fuse I'd spend $150 on, actually wouldn't open until current reached 8 amps.

 

RE: "Ralph is generally pretty good", posted on January 17, 2023 at 06:52:08
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Joined: September 26, 2013
 I think if that's the reason you're not trying boutique fuses you're missing the whole point.

Dave.

 

RE: $3000. is just..., posted on January 17, 2023 at 15:06:14
acres verde
Audiophile

Posts: 680
Location: Big Easy
Joined: November 13, 2004
 ... getting started. I believe their top-o-the-line Gold level comes in at $10K. I believe it has just launched.

 

RE: Acme Audio Labs silver cryo fuse, posted on January 17, 2023 at 17:32:37
mojul
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Joined: March 10, 2020
 Hi Luminator

Qute: "everyone prefers the AAL silver cryo, with the fuse value pointing or being closer to the rear panel".

Pointing og being closer to rear panel, has that something to do with directionality?

Do you mean, that the end with the fuse value should be on the + of the power line.

I am now also using the AAL Silver Cryo CFC fuse.
mojul

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 17, 2023 at 17:48:53
mojul
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Joined: March 10, 2020
 Hi Tre

I believe your picture shows the inside of the Gamut D200?

I very much love the sound of this single MOSFET amp, had a Sirius DMX 100 before, that also was a single MOSFET. The Sirius company changed name to GamuT and I think their sound is in family, although the D200 is in a another league ;-)
mojul

 

RE: Fuse direction review , posted on January 17, 2023 at 17:55:27
mojul
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Joined: March 10, 2020
 Hi Hawkmoon

Thanks for link.
This Enjoy The Music review in the end got me to try this fuse and am happy I did.
mojul

 

RE: Turn it around, posted on January 17, 2023 at 18:03:57
mojul
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Joined: March 10, 2020
 Hi Joe

Thank you for link to these fuse measurements. Now, at least we know, there are differences between ordinary and audiophile fuses, the audiophile fuses having the most low resistance.
mojul

 

RE: Acme Audio Labs silver cryo fuse, posted on January 17, 2023 at 18:32:18
Luminator
Audiophile

Posts: 6587
Location: Bay Area
Joined: December 11, 2000



This is the rear panel of an Adcom GFA-6002. This particular unit uses a large, slow-blow 3A fuse value.

We have an AAL silver cryo fuse in this value. If you look carefully at the fuse, one end cap says, "326," followed by four icons/logos. Everyone (none of whom is an audiophile) who has been over prefers the sound of this GFA-6002, with this end being placed deeper into the amp.

The other end cap says, "3A/250VP." It is this end, which should be placed, facing, or oriented closest to the GFA-6002's rear panel.

If you reverse the fuse direction in the GFA-6002, obviously, it works just same. But this does affect the GFA-6002's sonics.

Because the AAL silver cryo fuse is not expensive, several audiophiles have told me that they actually bought and tried some. Much depends on the component. And don't forget. Even if you hear a difference, you have to ask yourself if said difference is positive, negative, or quid pro quo.

 

"you're missing the whole point", posted on January 18, 2023 at 06:35:19
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 9950
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 I don't think that I'm missing the point. I'm a born skeptic, but I don't consider myself such a pedantic theorist that I wouldn't at least try a boutique fuse if I had one, to prove to myself that these guys are imagining things.

Note that the key word is "try" though. I have no desire to actually buy a non-UL rated, non-returnable, disposable item like a fuse. But if someone handed me one, I wouldn't not try it.



 

Fuses and ALTERNATING Current, posted on January 18, 2023 at 07:04:36
FlaCharlie
Audiophile

Posts: 928
Location: Gville, FL
Joined: June 1, 2003
 Earlier it was pointed out that in an AC line, which is where almost all fuses are used, the electricity changes direction.

No one has refuted this. Yet no one has addressed this either.

Please explain why the direction of the fuse matters when the electricity that's flowing through it is constantly changing direction.

If the electricity if flowing through the fuse in the "correct" direction half the time and in the "incorrect" direction half the time, the orientation of the fuse shouldn't matter.

It seems to me that this is the "elephant in the room" question, which the true believers have chosen to ignore.

 

RE: "you're missing the whole point", posted on January 18, 2023 at 07:37:51
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Joined: September 26, 2013
 This is not pedantic theory we're talking about here.

If you hold open the possibility of trying fuse orientation to prove to yourself something then......? (This is the point I'm referring to.)

Some things are factually obvious without experimentation to prove it. If I have a wheel of known circumference and desire to know how many revolutions it takes to travel 100 yards, I don't need the wheel and a football field to determine that.

Dave.

 

RE: Fuses and ALTERNATING Current, posted on January 18, 2023 at 07:40:10
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Joined: September 26, 2013
 One of the luxuries of the tweaker asylum is you can ignore the elephant in the room. :)
In fact, the elephant is ignored in many areas of the audiophile industry. :)

Dave.

 

RE: Fuses and ALTERNATING Current, posted on January 18, 2023 at 08:05:20
Joe Appierto
Audiophile

Posts: 1019
Location: Central NJ
Joined: January 3, 2004
 Respectfully, there isn't an elephant in the room. I think it's more like:






We all get the fact that the current alternates - no one is disputing that. But what the dogmatists seem to not understand is that some of us, depending on the aftermarket fuse and the piece of equipment it's used in, consistently have a preference for one fuse orientation over the other.

In some cases, again depending on the particular fuse and the unit it's used in, there is no preference for one orientation over the other - it sounds the same either way.

Could we maybe put this to rest and move on?

Joe

 

RE: Fuses and ALTERNATING Current, posted on January 18, 2023 at 08:44:30
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Joined: September 26, 2013
 Yeah, except when you remove a fuse and put it back opposite you're not changing its orientation. :)
You're changing its physical orientation, but not its electrical orientation.
This seems to confound some. I suggest to think about it further.

Calling those of us pointing out the basic electrical properties of this usage "dogmatists" is lazy rhetoric.
Remember, if the proof of your evaluation is subjective in nature only, then you haven't proven anything.......and any labels like "dogma" should be left on the sidelines.

Dave.

 

RE: Fuses and ALTERNATING Current, posted on January 18, 2023 at 09:31:10
Hornlover
Manufacturer

Posts: 2501
Joined: March 8, 2002
 ...but this one goes to eleven...

 

Elephant In The Room, posted on January 18, 2023 at 12:54:34
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3047
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 2018



Getting off on the wrong foot.

One step forward and one step backward.

Or...

One step backward and one step forward.

Darn electrons.




"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

$3000 fuses..., posted on January 18, 2023 at 22:27:09
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 30651
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 That's LAST years price.

If they've gone up in price 10% (like a cup of coffee has) since then, well...

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Turn it around, posted on January 19, 2023 at 19:29:57
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2903
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 Yeesh.

The problem is, altering the resistance would presumably significantly alter the I^2*T performance....which I have yet to see any of these boutique fuse manufacturers talking about.

I'm pretty sure I know what my insurance agent would have to say about throwing unlisted /unregisterred fuses in my gear....especially when I can't show the math proving the level of safety acomplished by the OEM's design isn't being compromised by using one of these fuses.

Besides...how is resistance even supposed to be directional for crying out loud? Changing orientation doesn't change the performance of a resistor.

 

RE: Turn it around, posted on January 19, 2023 at 19:54:49
Joe Appierto
Audiophile

Posts: 1019
Location: Central NJ
Joined: January 3, 2004
 Aftermarket fuses aren't for you. How about we leave it at that?


Joe

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 19, 2023 at 22:31:42
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2398
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 My SR Orange fuse is definitely directional. The sound gets definitely flat and lifeless with the fuse installed in the wrong orientation. The difference is very obvious. I heard it before burn in, and when I tried again to reverse the fuse AFTER burn in, the difference was there still. I don't know what would have happened if I burned in the fuse in the wrong orientation, but I think the correct orientation would still sound best.

 

A can of worms, posted on January 20, 2023 at 08:57:41
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4799
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 It would seem to me that if the orientation of the fuse makes a difference then the same should probably apply to resistors since a fuse is just a resistor that melts, ie a fusible resistor. Good luck reorienting and testing all your resistors!



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: Voltage drop, but there's something you're not getting, posted on January 20, 2023 at 11:42:55
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4592
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Is that a lot also depends on in what the fuse is being used.

In the case I measured, the amp was a zero feedback tube amp with a rather large filament circuit (about 19 Amps). Because there's no correction, yes, changes in line voltage most definitely affect it (not only does the plate voltage go down but the tubes cool off a little as well)! To measure the effect on such an amp, measure output power, distortion and output impedance. With greater voltage drop, the output power decreases and the other two metrics increase.

WRT fuse direction, that is so much poppycock. What is happening is the fuse isn't perfectly symmetrical and can get a better connection in the fuse holder one way or the other, so less voltage drop. For this reason people wind up thinking they are directional, which obviously is impossible.

You can get the same effect by rotating the fuse in its holder without reversing it; measure for the least voltage drop.

We make a class D amp that employs quite a lot of feedback and as a result of the rejection offered by that feedback, does not seem to respond to fuses at all.

The takeaway is the current draw, the kind of load and what feedback is present all play a role.

 

RE: Fuses and ALTERNATING Current, posted on January 20, 2023 at 12:22:59
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 20475
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I have a solution BUT want some $$$ from anyone who does this.

Wire 2 fuses in parallel......with a diode in series with each. Wire in such a way that current only flows ONE WAY thru each fuse.

Make certain that the fuses are oriented in the 'optimum' direction......
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Fuses and ALTERNATING Current, posted on January 20, 2023 at 12:25:39
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 20475
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 To me....and I certainly could be 100% wrong, the word 'Dogma' has religious conotations......

Please see above for my propoed solution ot the 'mystery of the fuse'......
Too much is never enough

 

RE: +1 If a fuse was really 'directional' it would heat up and fail in an AC circuit :) nt, posted on January 20, 2023 at 13:20:17
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4592
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 -

 

RE: Fuses and ALTERNATING Current, posted on January 20, 2023 at 13:49:38
Joe Appierto
Audiophile

Posts: 1019
Location: Central NJ
Joined: January 3, 2004
 It may have that connotation to you but it isn't what the word denotes.


dog·ma
/ˈdôɡmə/

a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
"the rejection of political dogma"
Joe

 

And resistors are often in the signal path! NT, posted on January 20, 2023 at 14:10:41
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 872
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
 NT

 

RE: +1 If a fuse was really 'directional' it would heat up and fail in an AC circuit :) nt, posted on January 20, 2023 at 14:16:31
abs1@bresnan.net
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: West of the Rockies East of the Desert
Joined: March 26, 2015
 True, but many of these people are either confused or "nukin futz".

 

RE: Voltage drop, but there's something you're not getting, posted on January 20, 2023 at 18:17:07
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2632
Joined: September 26, 2013
 There's nothing I'm not getting Ralph. I well understand there are different applications where fuse voltage drop might have a significant, maybe even audible, effect.

What this thread is about, and what my comments have been about, is only in regards to fuse 'directionality'.

Cheers,

Dave.

 

RE: Turn it around, posted on January 21, 2023 at 10:06:14
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2903
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 How can we conclude that? Because I asked questions about how well they work for their intended purpose? If you don't care about that why not just replace the fuses with a slug of some high conductivity material? Maybe I would think it was the best thing that ever happened to me if I put one of these fuses in something I use.

 

RE: Turn it around, posted on January 21, 2023 at 10:56:03
MylesJ
Audiophile

Posts: 1220
Location: Oregon Coast
Joined: October 25, 2001
Contributor
  Since: April 4, 2002
 How does this work with European electronics which come with two fuses, one on each leg of the power cable? I presume that the 120/240 switch enables it to be US legal. What does it do to the ability to figure out the proper orientation for the fuses?

 

You're right; my apologies nt, posted on January 23, 2023 at 10:22:08
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4592
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 -

 

+1 nt., posted on January 23, 2023 at 16:40:30
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4257
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 nt.

 

RE: Fuse direction question for my new build?, posted on January 23, 2023 at 17:19:51
B. Scarpia
Audiophile

Posts: 4191
Location: Near Pisgah Forest
Joined: October 30, 2019
Contributor
  Since: May 23, 2020
 What sounds better?

Mounting the fuse holder vertically or horizontally?


Novus Ordo Seclorum

 

RE: Fuse direction question for my new build?, posted on January 24, 2023 at 07:53:53
mkane77g1
Audiophile

Posts: 17
Location: CA
Joined: January 2, 2023
 Put a fuse in the car backward and now it has 6 speeds in reverse and one forward.

 

A can of worms can be directional too, posted on January 24, 2023 at 09:15:29
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2354
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 :)

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 26, 2023 at 19:55:55
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 20475
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Bingo!
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Fuses and ALTERNATING Current, posted on January 27, 2023 at 22:30:34
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 20475
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Ignore Elephant at your own peril.
You could Drown in the mess they make!
I doubt anyone would wade in to rescue ME and I sure and going in after YOU!
Too much is never enough

 

RE: normal fuses and ridiculousness , posted on January 28, 2023 at 09:54:34
Ugly
Audiophile

Posts: 2903
Location: Des Moines, WA
Joined: August 22, 2006
 "cow dong makes no difference placed on speaker wires."

Not sure how putting cow dong on my speaker wires wouldn't change everything.

 

Methinks nukin futz, posted on January 30, 2023 at 08:52:29
Jay Buridan
Audiophile

Posts: 9672
Location: Michigan
Joined: January 21, 2004
 Is the simplest answer.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on January 31, 2023 at 21:06:05
mojul
Audiophile

Posts: 22
Joined: March 10, 2020
 Last night my friend and I turned around the fuse (Acme Silver Cryo CFC) in my GamuT D200 and the difference was obvious and not small. The fuse sounded better when turned around. My friend didn't expect anything would change or at least he would be able to hear it (he is a musician). We were both surprised and heard the same as others here, much clearer, better definition, etc.

After that we did the same with my tube pre amp (PHP fuse, bought in 2006) and the same happened, but this time the sound was better before the fuse was turned around. The difference was not as big, as with the Acme though.

Will buy Acme fuses for the pre amp, as soon as the value I need is back in stock again.
mojul

 

RE: Fuse direction question for my new build?, posted on February 1, 2023 at 08:29:34
LtMandella
 I actually put my preamp upside down on the shelf. Damned if it doesn't sound more open and detailed.

However I found I had to reverse the polarity of the speaker connections to get the same bass.

Go figure!

 

Who is "they", with the $10K fuses for sale?, posted on February 1, 2023 at 17:44:21
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10827
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Thanks. I gotta see this to believe it.

 

Quantum cow dung is now available as a tweak, posted on February 1, 2023 at 17:49:28
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10827
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Cost is atmospheric.

 

RE: Fuse direction?, posted on February 1, 2023 at 17:50:46
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10827
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 You don't understand the scientific method, or statistics. But you're having fun, and that's what counts.

 

What's inside an SR fuse?, posted on February 1, 2023 at 17:53:52
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10827
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 I always wondered about the symbols on the outside that make it appear there is a diode or a capacitor inside. (I forget which, and you can bet I own no SR fuses that would allow me to refresh my memory.)

 

RE: Turn it around, posted on February 1, 2023 at 17:59:53
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10827
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Problem is that most audiophile fuses are not UL approved. Thus one cannot be sure they will do their job as fuses when and if the time comes. It is in fact not reassuring to learn they have lower resistance to start with (even assuming that is true), because that suggests they are too conductive to melt out when confronted with an overload situation.

 

RE: Who is "they", with the $10K fuses for sale?, posted on February 1, 2023 at 18:11:36
acres verde
Audiophile

Posts: 680
Location: Big Easy
Joined: November 13, 2004
 QSA audio

 

RE: Who is "they", with the $10K fuses for sale?, posted on February 3, 2023 at 07:09:55
sony6060
Audiophile

Posts: 1255
Location: USA
Joined: August 8, 2014
 Errr, a fuse using AC has no direction due to the voltage passes each way (forward and backward) thru the fuse. Anything you hear is placebo effect.

 

RE: Who is "they", with the $10K fuses for sale?, posted on February 3, 2023 at 08:58:11
acres verde
Audiophile

Posts: 680
Location: Big Easy
Joined: November 13, 2004
 Yes, as has been covered 1000 times before. I have no subjective experience in this arena...I'm just reporting on what's currently available in the marketplace.

 

LOL!, posted on February 3, 2023 at 11:45:28
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3429
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Thanks for the math. Those of us who understand electrical concepts know this but your numbers drive the point home to those who don't.

 

Snakes & snails & puppy dog tails! (nt), posted on February 3, 2023 at 12:05:29
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3429
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 z

 

RE: That is what I was going to say., posted on February 4, 2023 at 09:52:19
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10827
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 Some interconnect manufacturers, e.g., MIT and Transparent, insert a "black box" at the downstream end of their ICs and speaker wires, which so far as I know contains either just a capacitor or an RC network. I assume the capacitance value is very low, but it may help to produce a low characteristic impedance for the IC or speaker wire overall. In my experience this can be a good thing especially and maybe more so in speaker wires. My OTLs seem to work best driving a wire with low characteristic impedance. OTOH, some wires with high characteristic impedance, e.g., Nordost, have sounded awful in my system. Anyway, capacitance isn't all bad.

 

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