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Teac X10R reel drag.

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Posted on December 23, 2020 at 12:27:16
mr9iron
Audiophile

Posts: 421
Joined: March 13, 2002
Hey guys, I have a situation on something that is way out of my knowledge scope and it's quite puzzling. This is my first post in this forum in fact..

I have a very nice Teac X10R reel to reel. It was fully serviced in 2008 and then sat relatively unused for years. I was searching for a space for it in my home system, but really couldn't find any, so I decided to sell. However, upon running it through its paces, I discovered that there is reel lag or drag when you FF or RW the reels.

Here's the part that baffles me. The drag is really not bad and it does get up to speed in about 15 -20 seconds or so, it is tolerable until the take up reel (10 inch reel) gets to about 75 % full, then it starts to slow down, so slow that it seems like it's in about "play" speed and takes nearly 5-8 mins to finish up that last 25%. If I stop the reel there and try to FF or RW it's like stuck in quick sand.

I can't get over how soundly the machine runs until that point, and then loses speed. I mean the motors seem to run flawlessly with enough power to spin a wood lathe. I find it hard to believe it would be struggling to wind the last bit of tape. I have seen some you tube video where a tech shows reel drag, but it does not show the reels struggling once it gets up to speed. The situation in his video was dirty brushes on the motors.

When it comes to vintage amps and pre-amps I kind of know what to do and troubleshoot, but I am at a loss here. Does anyone know what kind of trouble shooting I can do to find out what the issue is? Taking this monster apart not knowing what to look for would be risky.

I can post some videos of the behavior if my description is not clear.

-updated posting, sending a link to a folder that has 4 videos showing the behavior, and one longer video showing general operation of the deck.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rUPnC5tTLf6JNcZyNakoQ0mWcnamljjD?usp=sharing

any help is always appreciated

 

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RE: Teac X10R reel drag., posted on December 23, 2020 at 13:04:35
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 48030
Joined: April 5, 2000
First thing first - you need to eliminate the possibility of SSS - Sticky Shed Syndrome, that afflicts many older tapes. Your description sounds like it.

What tape are you using? Some are more prone to SSS than the others. There are tons of information on SSS on line, including the tapes that are most prone to it.

I would clean the transport, and then try different brand of tape - for instance the Maxell tapes usually are fine.

Or "even more better" - use some brand new tape.


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  • RE: Teac X10R reel drag., posted on December 23, 2020 at 13:47:17
    mr9iron
    Audiophile

    Posts: 421
    Joined: March 13, 2002
    Victor,

    thanks for the info, not knowing much about the R2R world, I didn't know about SSS. I do not have any new tape, as this came with some older tape I think it's 3M. I assume, even if left in its container, SSS could still occur if it's old. I know it has to be at least 12 years or older.

    I do not have any new tape ATM. I am guessing there is no way to eliminate this possibility until I get some.

    Pulley's wheels and tape head are clean and free moving, and cleaned the heads. The heads had some minor grime when I cleaned with alcohol, nothing unexpected.

    Is there anything else that could be gleaned from the videos I have the link to?

    again much appreciated

     

    You can experiment with them..., posted on December 23, 2020 at 16:57:30
    kootenay
    Audiophile

    Posts: 7905
    Location: Calgary, Alberta
    Joined: October 16, 2007
    Contributor
      Since:
    April 6, 2008
    The tape sticky shed syndrome is caused by the oxide coating peeling away or being delaminated from the tape. You could try to restore them by
    baking them in the oven. According to some experts, you could set up the temperature in the oven at 130 F or thereabout to avoid melting the tape. Baking time should be around 6-8 hours again depending on the oven being used.

    If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
    (Proverb)

     

    RE: You can experiment with them..., posted on December 23, 2020 at 17:54:32
    mr9iron
    Audiophile

    Posts: 421
    Joined: March 13, 2002
    I cannot detect any residue or stickiness on any of the mechanisms or pulleys, is still possible that this is what's holing up the reels? If I touch the the tape itself with my fingers would I be able to determine if it is sticky?

    thanks!

     

    Just wondering..., posted on December 23, 2020 at 18:03:02
    kootenay
    Audiophile

    Posts: 7905
    Location: Calgary, Alberta
    Joined: October 16, 2007
    Contributor
      Since:
    April 6, 2008
    Does your machine do this? The reels will make screeching or squeaking sounds, and the tape will leave dusty, rusty particles on the guides and heads. In some cases, the symptoms are more subtle, causing intermittent dropouts of the sound.

    If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
    (Proverb)

     

    RE: Just wondering..., posted on December 23, 2020 at 21:34:02
    mr9iron
    Audiophile

    Posts: 421
    Joined: March 13, 2002
    Kootenay,

    Interesting, no residue, no screeching sounds, I found a you tube example of the screeching noise and I have nothing like this sound at all, though the example does simulate my slow FF and RW issue, as can be seen in the examples I linked to..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLEjOoRS_cM

     

    RE: Just wondering..., posted on December 24, 2020 at 05:43:25
    Dave Pogue
    Audiophile

    Posts: 11513
    Location: DC Area
    Joined: October 9, 2001
    Contributor
      Since:
    March 18, 2003
    Looking at your videos (very useful), I'd guess now that the belt is stretched, just enough to lose contact when most of the tape is on the take-up reel. Given its age and lack of recent maintenance it certainly is due for a replacement belt.

    One of the YouTube videos shows how to replace the belt. Me, I'd leave it up to my tech.

     

    I have the same TEAC deck...., posted on December 24, 2020 at 08:42:21
    Cougar
    Audiophile

    Posts: 4010
    Location: SoCal
    Joined: June 25, 2001
    mine wont engage when you press play. The pulleys move up slowly then go back down. So I suspect its the belt and I have one on order now.

     

    What Dave said..., posted on December 24, 2020 at 09:28:31
    kootenay
    Audiophile

    Posts: 7905
    Location: Calgary, Alberta
    Joined: October 16, 2007
    Contributor
      Since:
    April 6, 2008
    Sounds like it's time for a do-over proper maintenance by a tech.


    If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
    (Proverb)

     

    RE: Just wondering..., posted on December 24, 2020 at 11:06:49
    mr9iron
    Audiophile

    Posts: 421
    Joined: March 13, 2002
    Dave,

    thanks for taking a look, appreciate it, would I be able to hear the belt slipping, or anything I could do to further the suspicion? I think I have an extra belt, I'll see what kind of a chore it is to replace it. I am pretty good with vintage (tube) pre-amps and amps, but this is foreign to me, it's not just electronic, it's very mechanical with tons of moving parts. I don't think there is a tech near me that deals with r2r, I am in the Seattle area.

    thanks again!!

     

    RE: Teac X10R reel drag., posted on December 29, 2020 at 19:11:36
    mr9iron
    Audiophile

    Posts: 421
    Joined: March 13, 2002
    First thank you for everyone who has chimed in. I have some new and more specific information about this issue with my Teac 10r, and I am hoping it will help trace down the issue.

    Put quite simply, if I lay the unit on its back, everything runs like a champ, no drag no lag. I am pasting a link to a folder with videos showing how well it runs when horizontal, a full FF and RW - fast no hesitation and even works when stopped and started again at 80% full on the take up reel.

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VEnv69-vGv9tIxHxQffYlwBXmUcbxPqv?usp=sharing

    I can hear something in the motors that also sounds different, like a turbo or over drive is kicking in or something. If I place the deck upright, it goes back to the previous behavior of lag and drag. The new "turbo" over drive sound does not kick in..

    Can anything be gleaned from this new and more specific behavior? Is there some kind of a clutch or brake that may work well when on its back, but not when upright, if so, could it be getting stuck?? Could this indicate that at least the problem is most likely mechanical?

    Also, I think I can officially rule out SSS, I spun up a new spool of tape and went back and thoroughly cleaned the pulleys, caps, and heads, everything is pure, no residue no squeaking sound.

    Again, appreciate the help and hope to hear back. I may repost this issue if this thread has lost popularity.

     

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