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A few Listening Sessions

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Posted on April 26, 2009 at 08:08:04
stellavox
Audiophile

Posts: 424
Joined: June 23, 2004




I want to describe the results of a few listening sessions. The first included me; my son; a friend Neil Newman and his visiting nephew who may now also be interested in “Hi-Fi” – or after these “goings on”, maybe not!

We listened to and compared tape playback equipment. The “candidate” equipment, in the order listened was:

1. A “stock” Lyrec Frieda – in very good condition; checked out, but NOT aligned (that is next). With Bogen heads (I believe) – minimal wear.
2. My “tweaked Stellavox Sp7 with a Nortronics professional playback head.
3. An “”in progress” Sp7 with a Nortronics professional head wired out to Cello electronics.
4. A Nagra IV-SJ with Flux Magnetics heads, switchable 2 track or quarter-track, feeding Manley tubed playback electronics

The source material was a master of a big-band Jazz group that I made. Playback system was my King/Cello Palette preamplifier; Tweaked Lazarus H1A, class A hybrid amp and Quad ESL-63’s with a homebrew ESL-63 center channel woofer.

Neil compiled the results:

Lyrec Frieda: midbass thick – brass recessed – dynamics in general a little soft

Nagra/Manley: Low bass good; midbass tight; treble definition just OK; image shallow and “inside” speakers

Stellavox – good imaging; good low bass; better low level dynamic detail; top end better than others but still compressed

Stellavox(Nortronics)/Cello – low/mid bass very dynamic and controlled (less compressed); deep/wide soundstage; best detail

We stopped; I outlined a few of my “theories”, then we listened again to determine if the others could pick up on my “thoughts, on which they seemed to concur. Now, I’ve mentioned in previous posts that in addition to differences in playback electronics, I can hear noticeable differences between tape heads. This session reinforced my opinion and the others concurred. Nortronics heads “let through significantly more information” than the Flux Magnetics (and from past experience Nagra). I have not had the opportunity to make a similar comparison with Technics or other Japanese heads but do have and will arrange similar sessions to compare a few different Bogen heads. The solid-state electronics (Cello especially) provided significantly more detail - we could easily pinpoint individual instruments and their location on/in the soundstage; the Manley blended/smeared this information.

A couple of weeks later I had the opportunity to borrow a Bottlehead Tape Repro device and had another listening session with a visiting friend. We compared the Bottlehead to the Cello electronics using the Stella(Nortronics) deck. “Firmware” used was the wonderful Tape Project Arnold Overtures. Bottlehead electronics was very smooth and dynamic but, like the Manley, had imaging problems. Soundstage with the Cello was immense with each instrument/instrumental group detailed and focused – Bottlehead “coagulated” things and just didn’t seem to have anywhere near the same resolving power.

I have some theories on what’s going on, especially with the tape heads but that is for a later date.

Charles

 

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The Cello electronics are VERY NICE!, posted on April 29, 2009 at 08:45:20
grhughes
 The 9000 series Nortronics heads are more efficient than stock Ampex heads because of their construction. I don't know about the more modern ferrite heads like SAKI. A 650mh play head would offer very high output and a superior SN ratio because the self resonance of the head is within the audio pass band. But it's difficult to get all that wire in a small track config. That is why they went to a lower inductance heads coupled to input transformers. Also the move to sel-sync in a record head also served to lower the inductance of heads.
“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.” Hunter S. Thompson, A GENERATION OF SWINE

 

Another Decent Set-Up, posted on April 27, 2009 at 14:21:36
BR
 I have a Atma-Sphere MP3 preamp. Ralph modified the phono section with a switch for either Phono or Tape Head. I'm running the heads from a Technics 1500 into the preamp balanced. It sounds very nice and really lets one hear just how good some tape can sound. Some of the older Columbia 2 track tapes are amazing.

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions, posted on April 27, 2009 at 08:15:13
stellavox
Audiophile

Posts: 424
Joined: June 23, 2004
 Guys,

Thanks for all the comments/feedback so far. The cables used between the Nortronics head and the RCA's is that small blue Cardas (I believe) that I think actually came from Doc. Length is around 18".

I've started putting some thoughts to paper on what may be going on with the tape heads. What I think I'm hearing is not any frequency or dynamic effect but differences in "resolution" - purely conjecture at this part.

Had a great preliminary conversation this morning with John French (JRF Magnetics) about my affliction but had to cut it short to go to school (am actually taking a recording class) - will resume tomorrow then post something.

Charles

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions, posted on April 27, 2009 at 12:48:40
Doc B.
Manufacturer

Posts: 5916
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: October 6, 1999
 The cables we offer are red (Canare), some with and some without black Tech Flex and Cardas RCAs.

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions, posted on April 26, 2009 at 10:48:48
ironbut
Audiophile

Posts: 1370
Location: OR
Joined: February 21, 2004
 Hi Charles, great comparison and thanks for posting it.
Which Nortronics heads did you use? I'd heard that the PR-B2H-12K from the 9000 series were nice hyperbolic heads. I think those were 650mH heads.

BTW Did you see this article I posted on Mercury/Wilma Cozart Fine. When I saw the Audio Suite, I though about you.

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions, posted on April 26, 2009 at 11:20:55
u47
Industry Professional

Posts: 183
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: October 24, 2000
 I was just at stellavox's place last week for a second session of comparisons of various decks and playback electronics. First off, I am an unabashed tube 'freak'. I was biased towards the tube deck from the start. I was shocked at the final results. The Cello did smoke all other decks and preamps during the test session. I am not sure about the cable/head interaction was ideal for the Bottlehead tape repro electronics, as I have heard them sound absolutely STELLAR at Doc's place with the Nagra head on his T-Audio deck. Remember, the tape repro was tested on the same Nortronics head as the Cello tape preamp with the same cables.
There is more than one way to 'skin a cat' in the tape playback/vinyl playback departments. One of the best I ever heard was a Paul Weitzel modded Scully LJ-14 with basic nortronics play head and re-worked scully 280 Germanium preamps. It destroyed a re-worked ATR from Mike Spitz. The owner was a ultra high end manufacturer of speakers and his system was one of the best I've ever heard.
Needless to say, I am even more of a fan of Cello now than I ever was. I am even thinking of setting up a small shrine in my studio to Tom Colangelo and Mark Levinson :-)
The remote Palette equalizer was also a revelation. A must IMO for music lovers, as opposed to audiophiles.

Rich in Portland

 

I know that Scully. I've heard it myself a time or two., posted on May 2, 2009 at 05:44:30
Jack Seaton
Audiophile

Posts: 15756
Location: Spokane, Washington
Joined: October 1, 2004
 In fact, I liked his enough to buy one just like it. Of course mine has been back a dozen times in the past 10 years for "updates".

Just so you know, the Piedmont unit was one of Paul's very first modified Scullys, done well over 10 years ago. His mods have greatly improved since then.

Night and day changes.

You should hear what he has done for my 3M M-56 ...

 

RE: I know that Scully. I've heard it myself a time or two., posted on May 2, 2009 at 16:44:06
u47
Industry Professional

Posts: 183
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: October 24, 2000
 I heard it about 6 years ago and was dumbfounded to hear how incredible it sounded. This was with the plain Jane Nortronics head. The modded 3M machine must be to die for...

rich

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions, posted on April 26, 2009 at 12:43:41
Doc B.
Manufacturer

Posts: 5916
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: October 6, 1999
 "I am not sure about the cable/head interaction was ideal for the Bottlehead tape repro electronics, as I have heard them sound absolutely STELLAR at Doc's place with the Nagra head on his T-Audio deck."

Thanks for the kind words, Rich. As I understand it Charlie went in and made some changes to the Repro that we did not recommend. We work with specific stock heads and ask Greg Orton to make custom heads that work with our particular requirements.

It's perhaps interesting to note that our tape setup has been part of a system that got best sound of show at CES from TAS reviewers with the same speaker manufacturer you mention. That our products are considered the standard of comparison is quite flattering.

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions, posted on April 27, 2009 at 06:24:24
Myles Astor
 Hi Doc,

I had mentioned to Rich that based on his noting problems in the Repro's bass and dynamics, there might be an cable interaction going on between the BH Repro and Charles' Cello preamplifier. As I remember, the Repro had a higher than ordinary output impedance and if there's a long cable run/high cable impedance, certainly bass extension and dynamics can suffer.

I know Rich heard my system the day before and not sure if he noted the same issues (I would think he'd at least hear the dynamics since the ML are more dynamic than the Quads.) with my Repro--that admittedly is souped up with the Teflon V-caps. I'm still not sure if there's any cable interactions in my system since am using Bill Low Signature AudioQuest interconnects right now between the tape deck and Repro and Repro and preamp. There's no question that the cable length between the tape deck and Repro could be shorter! (though just received the two versions of Cardas cables to try eg. a short 24 inch length between the tape deck and Repro and a balanced to single ended cable between the Repro and the cj ART III.)

Myles

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions, posted on April 27, 2009 at 08:05:41
Doc B.
Manufacturer

Posts: 5916
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: October 6, 1999
 The output impedance of the Tube Repro is 500 ohms at the balanced transformer output. It can easily drive cables in the tens of feet and maybe hundreds. The single ended output does have a higher output impedance, 4K ohms.

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions, posted on April 27, 2009 at 14:22:10
Myles Astor
 Hi Doc,

I must have been thinking of the SE output since that's what I'm using at the moment.

Myles

 

cables - impedance followup, posted on April 27, 2009 at 08:22:19
stellavox
Audiophile

Posts: 424
Joined: June 23, 2004
 As Rich mentioned, the input impedance to the Pallette Pre is a Meg or two - I'm using Alpha core silver from the tape pre's to the Palette. On doc's pre we listened thru the low impedance output. On my own I did try quickly switching between that and the high impedance output (after compensating for the gain reduction. Didn't notice any change in sound" quality"

Charles

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions-follow up report, posted on April 27, 2009 at 06:37:53
u47
Industry Professional

Posts: 183
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: October 24, 2000
 I did not hear any issues with the Technics/Tape Repro at Myles' place the day before going to Charlie's. The sound was quite dynamic and transparent there and nowhere near as muddy as at Charlie's. The input impedance is 1 megohm on the Cello. I think the only fair way to compare is to have a complete TP system, with an extended frequency response head in a fully done up 1500 or Otari.
The sound is truly spectacular at Stellavox's place now. The only other time I've heard quads sound this good were at VSAC 6 years ago with Wolcott 220s driving them.


Rich in Portland

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions-follow up report, posted on April 27, 2009 at 08:33:03
stellavox
Audiophile

Posts: 424
Joined: June 23, 2004
 One important thing to keep in mind here and one thing I suffer from is lack of auditory memory. In my "experimentation" I've tried to change as little as possible, then "A/B" just that change a few times in succession to hopefully be able to fully "process" any differences.

When we were initially listening between the Bottlehead and the Cello (Cello was up first), it took twp "rounds" of switching before the differences became clear - and "unmisteakable" (to me anyway). And I totally agree that auditioning a whole (tuned???) front end is the way to go - HOWEVER if there are overall differences then you have to be able to dig deeper to differentiate where they are being introduced (head / cabling / preamplification electronics?)

CHarles

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions-follow up report, posted on April 27, 2009 at 15:44:40
ironbut
Audiophile

Posts: 1370
Location: OR
Joined: February 21, 2004
 I did a good bit of experimenting around with cables/tubes on my Technics (stock heads) and Repro and for me at least, they really make or break the system. I think part of it is the amount of very low level information contained in tapes. I have to admit that I'm not very scientific in my tweaks and if I can't hear a difference from day to day, I don't consider the difference to be significant and I go for the cheapest one. It took me over a year of fooling around with this or that before I've settled on what I have today. (he says just moments after rolling another tube)

That said, I have a lot of respect for good solid state equipment. It just isn't what I prefer to listen to in the long run. Some of the cables and tubes that I've tried have yielded better absolute resolution but they tend to carry a price in my enjoyment of the experience( it leaves me thinking about the sound rather than the music). But that's just me. I can easily understand why someone else would prefer to have a more detailed sound, especially so early in the signal chain.

I think that we're just in the infancy of this reel to reel revival. I welcome any avenues to eek out the next bit of goodness that is still hidden in a great tape whether it's old or new. But for the here and now,.. man! Am I pleased with what I've got!

 

RE: A few Listening Sessions-follow up report, posted on December 23, 2009 at 15:55:36
Useridchallenged
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Location: No. California
Joined: December 27, 2004
We are considering supporting tape EQ with the Wavestream Kinetics Archival Phono Stage. Although designed as a phono stage, you will see that it is a completely "open platform" which can support custom input loading and custom EQ cards. We are still in the early stages of matching up PB head, cables and preamp, as well as designing proper EQ cards that allow calibration of the EQ when using a calibration tape.

I'll keep folks posted...

Eric

 

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