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Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?

96.238.9.137
Posted on February 17, 2023 at 14:45:58
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000



Someone asked me.

My immediate reaction was to try to find a Wilson Benesch dealer who would give a $3000 discount on the P2.

Any other ideas?

john

 

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RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 17, 2023 at 17:44:05
fstein
Audiophile

Posts: 2789
Location: fstein
Joined: May 18, 2006
 4 Pi

 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 17, 2023 at 17:46:22
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 20473
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I'm sorry.....20K$? Bargain? in the same sentence? Not on Earth.

And at the 15k to 20k level? Incredibly competitive......and a 'must audition' situation....
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 17, 2023 at 18:28:47
trioderob
Audiophile

Posts: 579
Joined: May 15, 2015
 Magnepan LRS - hands down

got mine for 650 full blown retail and have heard it beat speakers 10x the price - magazines such as Stereophile have called them " the deal of the century "

the guys from the Absolute Sound did back flips over them

 

Different take ..., posted on February 17, 2023 at 19:44:43
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 12698
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 I'm not quite so sure the best bargain speaker under $20K is one that needs a discount to be under $20K.

I think any number of $2K - $5K speakers would be far more deserving of the title.

The P2 can contend for best bargain under $100K.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 17, 2023 at 20:03:15
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13758
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 for my money: Magnepan 20.7 or any speaker from Sound Labs that comes in
under $20k.

Life is hard. It's harder when you're stupid.

 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 17, 2023 at 21:45:13
JCarney
Audiophile

Posts: 429
Location: Colorado
Joined: January 12, 2003
 Just for fun, I'll take a shot. At $19995 in black or white satin finish, veneers and other finishes extra, they meet the "under $20k" requirement. The Salk Signature Sound BePure 3, link provided. Purifi ultra low distortion drivers, both mid and bass with passive radiators in the bass cabs, all accompanied by Satori Beryllium tweeters in a two cab design.

JCarney

 

Sanders 10E electrostat includes dsp/room correction, amp, posted on February 17, 2023 at 22:16:45
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 5954
Joined: April 6, 2000
 all for $17K, not bad for including the Magtech amp and dsp crossover/room correction LMS.

 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 18, 2023 at 04:24:08
CG
Audiophile

Posts: 432
Joined: October 11, 2000
 If you mean, "If I was willing and able to spend as much as $20K, what is the best loudspeaker I can buy?", my answer would be Vandersteen Quatro Wood CT's.

As others have noted, there are other great bang-for-the-buck offerings, usually much lower in price. Those may qualify as better bargains. But, for my money and taste, the Quatro's are the best to listen to.

 

No Speaker should be Recommended ...., posted on February 18, 2023 at 06:01:45
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2212
Joined: September 27, 2004
 ... until the TYPE of speakers that's best for his room and his preferred music style is established.

I was recently looking for a replacement speaker for that sort of price in place of my 17 year old Avantgarde Unos. After research and showroom demo, I bought Martin Logan Expression 13As electrostatics. Sadly, because I hadn't checked that they'd suit my room by insisting on a home demo, they turned out significantly worse than my old Unos. They were sold at substantial loss.

I went for new Avantgarde horns because they clearly suited my particular room. The Duo XD's bought with a big dealer discount were about the budget you mention and my experience with AGs is that they hold value extremely well. Having bought the Duo XDs, I advertised my old Unos and found a keen buyer offering the asking price - EXACTLY what I had paid for them new in 2002 with a big dealer discount.

But I still wouldn't recommend them until the room and music type has been carefully considered. Electrostatics may be better in his room, but I'd choose Quad over Martin Logan if I could live with the "bard door" looks, despite their being half the price

 

Yes, I have asked him about his tastes and his room..., posted on February 18, 2023 at 06:49:03
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 He says his last good loudspeakers were Infinity References of some sort, so I assume he can be happy with cones and domes.

ciao,

john

 

Thanks. nt, posted on February 18, 2023 at 06:49:56
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 nt

 

Thanks very much! I wonder if they could swap in the SB Satori TeXtreme tweeter..., posted on February 18, 2023 at 06:53:19
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 Well, Purifi drivers measure very well, though I have yet to hear one.

But they are on my list to experiment with.

However, first comes the SB Satori TeXtreme woofer. AKA The Poor Man's Rockport.

ciao,

john

 

Thanks! nt, posted on February 18, 2023 at 06:54:04
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 nt

 

RE: Yes, I have asked him about his tastes and his room..., posted on February 18, 2023 at 07:27:33
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2212
Joined: September 27, 2004
 I would suggest that many rooms would allow other types than conventional boxes to sound better, but people rarely seriously consider the alternatives.

When people start this hobby they usually buy used speakers or maybe DIY. Invariably this is with box designs and most of us don't consider anything else, but as budgets increase to the level you are talking about, there is often something better than boxes in many rooms. For truly live performance sounding music, I'd suggest that horns or electrostatics (let's include other panel types here) will offer better imaging and greater excitement factor that more closely approaches the original live performance than box designs. I spent 40+ years with good quality (mainly) box speakers of one type or another, but I've grown out of them after a particular box design disappointed to the extent that a Stereophile review of the AG Unos described exactly the sound I wanted and that was so lacking in the otherwise highly considered boxes I was previously using.

 

Here's a bargain circa $10,000, posted on February 18, 2023 at 07:43:52
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000



Sinar Baja Acoustics (SB) has a "luxury" line of drivers called "Satori." Satori drivers often make use of Thin Ply Carbon woven ribbon material in a basketweave.

SB puts together "Open Source" kits, and through their North American distributor Solen, they also sell assembled, finished cabinets. So, everything but the crossover, but SB publishes the crossover info, so Solen can build those for you too.

If you go to www.solen.ca you can price out the cabinets and the regular kit.

I have asked Solen for a price for a pair of fully assembled, tested Sasandu TXes.

Specs:


Frequency Range: 32 - 32000 Hz
Sensitivity ( 2.83V / 1m ): 89 dB
Nominal Impedance: 4Ω
Max SPL: 108 dB
Recommended Amplifier: 100 - 200 W
Crossover Frequency: 400/ 2800 Hz
Enclosure Type: Bass reflex (woofer), sealed (midrange)
Port tuning Frequency: 32 Hz
Drive Units SATORI TW29TXN-B-8,
6.5 inch SATORI MW16TX-4 &
7.5 inch SATORI MW19TX-8

I'll report once Solen gets back to me.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

If I had to throw darts at the Wall Street Journal, I'd say it was between the Wilson Benesch P2, the Sasandu TX, the Salk (or a different Salk), or possible a GR Research open-baffle design.

ciao,

john

 

My personal experiences with electrostatics have only been with QUAD..., posted on February 18, 2023 at 08:03:59
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 In my callow youth, I heard QUAD '57s, and I did not get them.

The 63s were frustrating, but then people told me that if I spent several thousand dollars completely rebuilding them, I would like them more.

I recall having something like the 9595(?) in for review, years ago.

Again, so near, yet so far.

Funny, your personal story made me remember my long dalliance with Shahinian loudspeakers...

I wonder if they have any inventory on hand.

all my best,

john

 

RE: Sanders 10E electrostat includes dsp/room correction, amp, posted on February 18, 2023 at 08:56:34
sk
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 639
Joined: April 22, 2000
 Actually I bought a pr of Sanders 10e speakers and while good just couldn't get them to really sing. Still liked them BUT you need almost as much in cabling as the speakers. They require 2 sets of speaker cables an extra set of interconnects for the dsp unit and 4 extra ac cords. 2 for the speakers 1 for the dsp unit and another for the 2nd amp. Yes even though the 17k gets you one amp you still need a 2nd amp.

 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 18, 2023 at 09:08:41
chocolate_lover
Audiophile

Posts: 1546
Location: South Central Coast, California
Joined: October 12, 2003
 Anyone of these? (pages 32-36)

 

RE: Here's a bargain circa $10,000, posted on February 18, 2023 at 10:27:04
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4047
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 +1. Haven't heard them, of course, but if I had to choose only on the design and drivers, these look great.

 

RE: Thanks very much! I wonder if they could swap in the SB Satori TeXtreme tweeter..., posted on February 18, 2023 at 11:49:20
JCarney
Audiophile

Posts: 429
Location: Colorado
Joined: January 12, 2003
 From Jim Salk talking about the Purifi drivers. They seem to be the new standard for how a driver should be. I do not know about swapping tweeters, would need a xover tweak I'm guessing. I wonder how different it would sound.

JCarney

The BePure 2's shine in two areas. First, the distortion levels are so low with Purifi drivers, they set a new standard in that regard. It is quite audible and sets a new standard for other driver manufacturers to match. The midrange is pristine even when the drivers are also reproducing deep bass. Even though the drivers are 6.5" drivers, their long throws allow for great bass extension and the bass they produce is very tight and articulate. These are slightly smaller floor standers, but the bass they put out defies reason for a speaker of that size.

I could live with any of these speakers. But if given a choice, I would likely prefer the BePure 2's because the low distorion midrange is so alluring. It sets a new standard for sound reproduction and I know of no alternative drivers that can compete in this area.

I hope this helps.

- Jim

 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 18, 2023 at 13:47:31
G Squared
Audiophile

Posts: 7823
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
Joined: November 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: December 0, 0000
 I don't recall the price, but GT Audioworks would be on my list. I have heard them at several shows and they are always great.
Gsquared

 

Thanks--yeah., posted on February 18, 2023 at 14:05:03
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 Of course, Sinar Baja drivers (reputedly) appear in Aerial and Wilson Audio loudspeakers.

A large part of that of course is the Danish engineering, and of course premade TPCD woofer cones come from the audio division of Oxeon in Sweden.

I think of the Sasandu TX as "The Poor Man's Rockport."

Thanks for posting,

john

 

RE: My personal experiences with electrostatics have only been with QUAD..., posted on February 18, 2023 at 15:16:46
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2212
Joined: September 27, 2004
Thanks John

My only first-hand experiences with electrostatics are with the Quad 2905 (with latest 2912 transformers and other upgrades) and the ML Expression 13A.

I bought the Quads after hearing a friend's 2905s and was impressed enough to buy the modified used pair. In my tricky room, they sounded remarkably good and this prompted the purchase of new MLs - that turned out as a big disappointment.

The room presents a problem in that it's effectively semi-circular with the speakers placed mid-room and a curved glass wall 12 ft behind one speaker and 15 ft behind the other. Now, why the Quads sounded so good while the MLs were so disappointing (even with Anthem "room correction") is the mystery. They are both panels that project 50% of their energy backwards, so why did the Quads sound so good?

I may have kept the Quads (well in fact I had not intention of doing so!) had their "barn door" design not been so view blocking. The narrow semi-transparent ML seemed the obvious choice. I sold the MLs and kept the 17 year old Avantgarde horns, later upgraded to Duos, then the Duo XDs I'm enjoying now.

That's why I commented that the TYPE of speaker should be influenced by the room and that a home demo is essential before purchase, if an expensive error like mine is to be avoided!

Peter



 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 18, 2023 at 15:27:15
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2212
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Lots of suggestions, but one essential feature I'd look for in this price range - get speakers with grown-up bass drivers.

Not a pair of 6 or 7" ones but twin 10" or even maybe 12". You don't want costly speakers that offer such poor bass that you feel you have to add subs for them to sound good.

 

Wow, what a setup and a vista, thanks, posted on February 18, 2023 at 15:48:03
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 The previous listening room of mine that JA visited before my later one had a huge turret at the end of a Victorian mansion that had been split up into apartments, and there were three huge curved-glass double-hung wooden sash windows covering most of a 180 degree curved wall.

Which looked out across the street onto the parking lot of the other Victorian mansion that had been converted into a boutique hotel.

ciao,

john

 

Clever to have an Audiologist test your Hearing Before spending.. anything :-), posted on February 18, 2023 at 19:00:35
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1829
Joined: April 14, 2009
 N/T

 

RE: Clever to have an Audiologist test your Hearing Before spending.. anything :-), posted on February 18, 2023 at 19:33:24
chocolate_lover
Audiophile

Posts: 1546
Location: South Central Coast, California
Joined: October 12, 2003
 Recently dealing with a hearing issue, the ENT at a renown ear clinic informed me that presbycusis (people losing higher frequencies after 50) actually starts in the 20's (probably more now than ever with people blasting "music" in their ears with earbuds, etc.). I suppose knowing one's loss of certain frequencies via a good audiogram can help inform what may need to be augmented in an audio system at home.

 

RE: Thanks very much! I wonder if they could swap in the SB Satori TeXtreme tweeter..., posted on February 18, 2023 at 20:01:08
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4047
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 The Purifi drivers appear to be awesome with long throw and still low distortion. I keep thinking of a speaker with a 10" SB sub(35Hz and 0.50 Q in 1 1/4 cubic ft closed box), 2 4" Purifi drivers in a D'Appolito set up and a Satori Beryllium tweeter(too many reports of it being superb, even giving good ribbons competition). Thinking of an active speaker using Hypex units.

 

So much depends upon your preferences, posted on February 19, 2023 at 07:38:12
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 35047
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I'd go with Magnepan 20.7s or Sound Lab M545s.

 

These - Tannoy Churchill, posted on February 19, 2023 at 09:08:05
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1846
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since: December 14, 2012
 USD $6,308.21
C$ 8,500.

Located in Montreal. Someone should grab these, but measure your room first - they are two feet wide and two feet deep.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

You show me Yours and I'll show you Mine!, posted on February 19, 2023 at 15:03:39
cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2212
Joined: September 27, 2004
 Room layouts I mean. Both rooms sound interesting from a music and aesthetic point of view

 

Business failure and divorce put paid to that grandiose listening room, sad to say..., posted on February 19, 2023 at 18:20:10
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 John Marks Records dug a hole between $180,000 and $250,000 deep.

Classical case of the tide going out while one is swimming naked.

Tower Records and Border's were my best customers, duuh.

I don't feel bad; Dorian Records blew threw $4 million in Angel Rescue Money and still ended up in Chapter 7. (IMHO, they should have filed for Section 8, but that is an out-of-date military joke.)

AMB,

john

PS: My present non-opulent listening room, or a bit of it, is in the linked-to video. Yes, that is a real piano on the left. The blue speakers were loaner review copies. The small speaker is my work.

 

I have crunched the numbers on the Purifi woofers; and I have seen Erin's test report, posted on February 19, 2023 at 18:29:25
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7218
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 Yeah, they seem almost too good to be true.

Between the long throw and the high-ish Moving Mass, they need a huge Force Factor, but they still seem not as Agile as other similarly priced high-end drivers such as Accuton.

Question is, what makes the most difference in the sound?

It seems that the Genius Aspect is the Hair-Scrunci style mountainous surround, which enables to eye-popping Xmax, with still the lowest distortion Erin has measured.

I have not crunched the numbers between the Satori Beryllium and the TeXtreme tweeters.

But even so, listening is the only test that matters.

The design client who was funding this project has asked me to lie low for a while. I hope the restart the project.

A shoot out between a TeXtreme woofer and a Purifi woofer would be totally engrossing.

ciao,

john

 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 19, 2023 at 20:15:43
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15107
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 With all the speakers out there that have been selling for decades and decades, it comes down to that "someone's taste."

Living in Hong Kong I was looking at watches - it is staggering to me the sheer number of completely different looking watches - some are to my eye hideous. Still, at $3,000 to $3 million a watch people must like the looks of them enough to shell out their money.

 

How was your room for Sanders 10E speakers?, posted on February 19, 2023 at 21:32:36
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 5954
Joined: April 6, 2000
 Was the room a good size/shape for the Sanders? Enough room treatments?
I already run fully active biamped system with DSP crossover/room correction, so I already have necessary cabling :)

How did you feel about the sound quality and transparency of included dbx Driverack venu360 dsp/crossover? I use a very similar dbx Driverrack Pa2, but if I could ask for an improvement, I would have asked the Sanders 10 system to be built around a higher quality analogue crossover using discrete components..

 

RE: How was your room for Sanders 10E speakers?, posted on February 20, 2023 at 19:25:23
sk
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 639
Joined: April 22, 2000



Yes dedicated listening room 16' x 26' with cathedral ceilings.
Lots of tweaks and room is tuned from below.

 

Easy, posted on February 21, 2023 at 07:29:09
Doublej
Audiophile

Posts: 598
Location: Boston
Joined: January 11, 2009
 Something used that a well to do audiophile wants to sell after a couple of years of use.

Or perhaps it is the $20k model from Pat McGinty.

 

Surprised Meadowlark went with Hypex plate amp, posted on February 21, 2023 at 15:49:39
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 5954
Joined: April 6, 2000
 with dsp/Ncore for all drivers. This means the Hypex plate amp is doing AD->DA or at least DA conversion for all signals, and I'm not sure audiofools are ready for that..?

 

Best Bargain Period !, posted on February 22, 2023 at 11:34:13
tincup
Audiophile

Posts: 227
Joined: August 20, 2016
 All new $33.800 Clarisys Audio Minuet Loudspeakers USA.. Biggest Bargain Period !





 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 22, 2023 at 13:02:08
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 872
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
 Think of watches as one of the few generally acceptable jewelry options for men. And, just like jewelry for women, a high price and exclusivity just becomes part of the effort to "show off" to display one's high status.

A number of years ago I had a client that came up with an alternative to watches for men's jewelry -- writing pens. Their cheapest model was $3,000 and they had options that ran close to $100K. Sadly, the big economic downturn in 2008 did them in.

If I recall correctly, the one shown below was $50K or $60K for a single pen, and that was 15 years ago.



 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on February 23, 2023 at 08:28:30
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8202
Joined: June 3, 2006
 I Made a big mistake some 15 years back. I had to sign a form and I absent-mindedly picked the pen from my friend's pocket, opened and signed. Only then I saw the Mont Banc name on that beautiful pen. We were very good friends but it upset me alot and had to avoid him for some time!!

Bill

 

How about recommending something you actually experienced , posted on February 23, 2023 at 10:07:49
Edp
Audiophile

Posts: 4267
Joined: September 23, 1999
 The vast majority of your posts are just video links to obscure manufacturers that you are mostly just parroting others claims.

BTW $33,000 is never a bargain if your talking about home audio speakers, especially ones that require 2 ohm stable amps.

 

PMC ? (nt), posted on March 3, 2023 at 21:28:33
chuck55
Audiophile

Posts: 583
Joined: February 10, 2003
 >

 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on March 4, 2023 at 04:25:12
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15107
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Well, the term audio jewelry has come into play for a reason. I remember the watch craze and it is still with us. It's about status and name-brand appeal. Sometimes the items ARE in fact superior and it's up to each person, in the end, to determine what that is.

On another forum, a person was asking about a Tissot Gentleman Powermatic 80 watch in green (I tried it on two weeks back) - $550 is retail - so not cheap but in the watch world pretty cheap. Most would consider it a great value.

The fellow then tried on a Longines and also liked it but it runs $2,300 or so.

Now folks who know watches will run down the specs and noted that Tissot and Longines are both owned by the Swatch group - which owns ETA movements. Both watches have ETA movements (the same) and both come with Sapphire crystal glass (virtually impervious to scratches).

There are not diamonds or gold to really indicate what the Longines is giving you. Maybe it's a bit nicer finished - ok - so it's 20% better.

You know what that means in audio - if it's 20% better of course you will pay $80,000 over $10,000. LOL.

My suggestion on the watch was that you could buy about 5 Tissot Gentleman kind of watches for all different occasions with different styles and looks. Or be stuck with just one watch. And it's not like Longines has some sort of elite pedigree as a show off watch - it isn't Patek or Rolex or even Omega (also owned by Swatch and also using ETA movements).

In the end, though it comes down to your "feelings" about it.

Personally, I like the "story" of Orient watches more and they build it all in house. And for $350 I bought one. And then I bought two other Tissot watches.

The pens make no sense to me but perhaps they are filled with liquid gold?

 

RE: Best Bargain in loudspeakers under $20,000?, posted on March 12, 2023 at 08:01:34
Ken Lyon
Audiophile

Posts: 1332
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Eta mechanical movements come in 4 grades: Standard, Elabore, Top and COSC(chronometer).
Differences between grades amount to finish, accuracy,
& higher quality mainsprings, balance wheel and jewels.
COSC certification takes Top movements and subjects them individually to a 2 week multiple orientation, multi-temperature, high accuracy evaluation.
Tissots and Certinas will generally use the standard grade Eta calibers with a few flagship models utilizing Elabore or COSC certified movements. Longines, Rado and Mido only use Elabore and higher grade Eta calibers.

 

You're killing me, posted on March 16, 2023 at 03:34:56
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15107
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Thanks for that - I have read that some of the non COSC movements are measuring to that standard when tested. Although I suppose you'd have to buy the watch and get "lucky" that yours measures that well.


I'm looking at Oris at the moment but for a lark, I looked up Tissot COSC -

Here you go $352. Granted gray market Jomashop but still... Of course, people seem put off by the powermatic 80 beat rate thing, the second-hand judder.

After looking at the Grand Seiko Spring Drive - everything else now looks like quartz! :-)



 

RE: You're killing me, posted on March 16, 2023 at 18:42:02
Ken Lyon
Audiophile

Posts: 1332
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Nothing wrong with the Powermatic movements provided that the lesser smoothness of the second hand's sweep doesn't detract. Probably their greatest issue is that your typical watch repair guy will have more difficulty in fine regulation.
My most accurate watch is a COSC powermatic Mido CommanderII that has been reliably running @ avg.+1/2 sec/day (-1/4 to +1.25 s/d range)-imo,pretty credible for a tool movement.

PS- I've a friend with a blue dial Tissot Chemin that he loves-the price of that COSC is like theft but fortunately I can'tget away with a 42 and don't have dresser space for another winder anyway.

PPS- agree entirely about the GS spring drives-love their dial face & marker detailing too.

PPPS- speaking of seiko's- i'm really impressed with the presage line- the workmanship is stunning and sold at midline pricing- near GS level attention to details of hands, markers and dial faces

PPPPS- as you are probably aware, Oris uses Sellita movements nowadays-ie: ETA 2824-2(SW200) or ETA Valjou(SW500)derived calibres.Sellita was formerly an Eta subcontractor and picked up the slack when Swatch Group
initially announced they would faze-out the supply of movements to outside manufacturers. The quality of the Sellita mechanisms are excellent.

 

RE: You're killing me, posted on March 16, 2023 at 21:27:44
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15107
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 I have looked at the presage but many of them have that Hardlex instead of Sapphire. I bought a Seiko with Hardlex and it was completely scratched to hell in one week. My Sapphire Tissot Bridgeport is 8 years old and looks new. So I swore off any watch that doesn't have a sapphire glass or at least Sapphire Crystal coating as my Vincero is still looking new 5 year or so now.

Some of the presage models do use Sapphire but not the ones I like.

I am looking at a brand called Vario that uses either a Seiko NH38A Automatic movement or an Adjusted Miyota 82s5 automatic gilt movement (Côtes de Genève). They are in the sub $360 range - kind of cool-looking watches out of Singapore.

 

I decided to support the little guy, posted on March 17, 2023 at 05:20:11
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15107
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001

I decided to buy a Vario and support the little guy. I've been after a salmon watch for a while and he and his wife have a lot of nice reviews.

Movement: Seiko NH38A Automatic
Crystal: Sapphire with inner AR coating
Diameter: 38mm
Lug to Lug: 46mm
Thickness: 11.5mm
Strap Width: 20mm

There are 100 available in each of 13 colours - all were sold out except this Salmon Tuxedo and a grey tuxedo. So they are doing not too bad selling 1100+ watches of just one series (Empire).

Their 1918 Trench watches have gotten some good press and I like them but not sure where I could wear them. I do kind of like some of these microbrands - I find that some of the mainstream stuff all kind of look the same, especially those dive watches.

 

RE: You're killing me, posted on March 17, 2023 at 05:40:04
Ken Lyon
Audiophile

Posts: 1332
Joined: April 4, 2000
 I hadn't realised that the Presages were using a mineral glass rather than sapphire. That's a shame.

So you're looking at the Vario Trenches? Neat retro styling, imo.
I quite like the offset onion crowns.

Speaking of onion crowns, I'm also partial to some of the Laco's fleigers as well.
The basic pilot line with Miyota 821A movements are pretty reasonable starting at around $400 USD

Anywhoo, have fun in your quest.

 

RE: I decided to support the little guy, posted on March 17, 2023 at 07:34:08
Ken Lyon
Audiophile

Posts: 1332
Joined: April 4, 2000

Sweet.I like the art deco thing going on. Gonna be an eye catcher.
I wasn't aware of their full range-just the Trench field watches.

For myself, I keep eyeing a Muhle Glasshutte Panova.

 

RE: I decided to support the little guy, posted on March 17, 2023 at 08:32:15
Ken Lyon
Audiophile

Posts: 1332
Joined: April 4, 2000


Then again,
there's that Nomos Club Campus.

So many watches....

... so few wrists

 

RE: I decided to support the little guy, posted on March 17, 2023 at 21:15:16
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15107
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001

Yes so many watches - I like the Nomos watches as well.

if you're on the Vario site check out their popeye watches.

An optical lens sits as a water droplet to magnify the "Jumping Hour". This rare complication has a hidden hour wheel jumping to the current time number, instead of the hour hand sweeping around the dial.

They make ones without Popeye too but I think the jumping hour things is pretty awesome. Marine vessels aspects: a helmsman's wheel, a sailor hat on the crown, hands from steam engine gauges, and subdials with an anchor or compass hand.

Sold out of course but they may be back.

 

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