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Off Axis Speakers, Design Type? Mfgs?

24.6.59.190

Posted on December 30, 2020 at 13:24:46
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 331
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
Happy Early New Year All,

I tried search, but it's still down.

I saw a comment below by Ivan about Joseph Audio ($$$!) being a good choice for off axis listening. What types of speaker designs present a good choice for off axis listening, which ones to avoid at all costs? Any other specific manufacturers that anyone would recommend for this specific problem?

I'm coming to grips with the fact that I'll not have a dedicated room again any time soon, and the living room just doesn't present many opportunities for ideal listening positions. Not that I'm ready to rush out and buy anything new, but I'm curious for anyone's experience in setting something up that gives the most performance for a less than ideal location. I could locate them away from walls a bit, and I could get proper distance between, but the chair just wouldn't be between the L & R speakers most of the time. I could move the chair when the girls are away for a while, but certainly not every day.

 

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omnis, posted on December 30, 2020 at 13:41:18
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 1828
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
omni then seems like the best alternative: MBL?

Probably can't get good stereo imaging but you could get reasonable power spectral balance.

 

RE: Off Axis Speakers, Design Type? Mfgs?, posted on December 30, 2020 at 15:20:46
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 41714
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

Maybe not these.



 

RE: Off Axis Speakers, Design Type? Mfgs?, posted on December 30, 2020 at 15:46:22
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 520
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
Have you considered Ohms with the Walsh driver? I have a pair of 1000s (and had a pair of the Ohm Fs back in the 1970s) and they have an incredibly big sweet spot. I have found I can sit pretty much anywhere in the room and get a realistic image. In fact, if one moves around during a song it is pretty much like moving around while live musicians are playing. The perspective changes a bit, but realistically. Nothing goes in and out of focus like one experiences with many box speakers.

I've also found that Ohms handle difficult rooms well, though like any speaker, one does need to experiment with positioning.

 

Needs More Antlers..., posted on December 30, 2020 at 19:21:05
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 331
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
I use antlers in all of my decorating...

(as sung by Gaston in Beauty and the Beast)

 

RE: Off Axis Speakers, Design Type? Mfgs?, posted on December 30, 2020 at 19:31:26
rivervalley817
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Joined: June 15, 2020
that should be a 'caption this' photo!

much like a toboggan the last seated gets all the slush

regards,

 

RE: Off Axis Speakers, Design Type? Mfgs?, posted on December 30, 2020 at 20:20:05
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12397
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
The Joseph Audio speakers are noted especially for working well above and below the forward axis due to the steep crossovers.

Forward radiating speakers with wide and even dispersion should work fairly well off the horizontal axis, although you can get stereo image issues. The best speaker I ever heard for horizontal off axis listening was the Ethera Vitae, which maintains a stereo image well off to the side. I thought it was a really nice speaker.

I have no idea whether they are still available or what the price would be.

https://www.ethera.com/

NRC measurements published in Soundstage are linked below.

I think there are other ways to get a good off axis image, but I don't think I could explain them.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

RE: Perhaps you can find a pair of these?, posted on December 31, 2020 at 05:48:30
B. Scarpia
Audiophile

Posts: 2319
Location: Near Pisgah Forest
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Contributor
  Since:
May 23, 2020
A good friend had them way back when in his very large LR that had several conversation areas and adjoining DR.

Empire Grenadiers



Any Damned Fool Knows One Horse Can Run Faster Than Another

 

RE: Off Axis Speakers, Design Type? Mfgs?, posted on December 31, 2020 at 05:55:14
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 41714
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

Audiophile edition.



 

Certainly good WAF, as they seem to simply disappear! :P, posted on December 31, 2020 at 07:43:01
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3436
Location: Mountains of WNC
Joined: August 31, 2000
Ummm...

A pair of what? No image shows. :)

 

RE: Certainly good WAF, as they seem to simply disappear! :P, posted on December 31, 2020 at 08:28:30
B. Scarpia
Audiophile

Posts: 2319
Location: Near Pisgah Forest
Joined: October 30, 2019
Contributor
  Since:
May 23, 2020
It's your OS, or AA, or connection to reality. Pic loads for me.

Google still works, I'll bet.

Any Damned Fool Knows One Horse Can Run Faster Than Another

 

RE: Off Axis Speakers, Design Type? Mfgs?, posted on December 31, 2020 at 08:34:37
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

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Contributor
  Since:
September 4, 2000
That's been my experience as well. No conventional speaker design has come close to the Ohm 1000 in my small room in regard to an off-axis listening experience.

 

Nor these..., posted on December 31, 2020 at 08:37:26
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 30512
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002

 

Here's a photo , posted on December 31, 2020 at 08:38:37
Gary
Audiophile

Posts: 989
Location: New York, NY
Joined: April 21, 2000
I was just curious.

 

I get a "403 forbidden", posted on December 31, 2020 at 08:40:07
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 30512
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
when I copy the link into FF browser.

Likely Worthpoint doesn't like direct linking.

 

+1 on considering Ohms. , posted on December 31, 2020 at 08:48:11
G Squared
Audiophile

Posts: 6042
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
Joined: November 16, 2004
They may be my next speaker purchase.
Gsquared

 

RE: Off Axis Speakers, Design Type? Mfgs?, posted on December 31, 2020 at 08:56:03
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 2585
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
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September 4, 2000
Saw that same type of set up at RMAF for the Sanders electrostatics. Cross those off the list as well.

 

RE: Needs More Antlers..., posted on December 31, 2020 at 10:49:12
Cpwill
Audiophile

Posts: 786
Location: DC
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Contributor
  Since:
October 24, 2008
That isn't decoration. It's quadratic resonance diffusion.


"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture." ― Thelonious Sphere Monk

Cpwill

 

RE: Off Axis Speakers, Design Type? Mfgs?, posted on December 31, 2020 at 10:53:59
rivervalley817
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Joined: June 15, 2020
good gawd Ivan! not THAT slush!

ewwwww!

that was the both the sickest & stoopidest flick I've ever walked out of the room over besides 'Magic Mike'

with regards,

 

RE: +1 on considering Ohms. , posted on December 31, 2020 at 11:09:40
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 331
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
They do look promising. At least unobtrusive. Why oh why to they list them as costing $xxxx, "each" I always find that disingenuous.

 

Ditto... N/T, posted on December 31, 2020 at 12:29:57
musetap
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Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since:
January 28, 2004
a
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Obviously the photographer is a not an audiophile..., posted on December 31, 2020 at 12:31:55
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 26460
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since:
January 28, 2004
Wrong position.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

At least, these guys got to sit down., posted on December 31, 2020 at 13:38:33
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 11818
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002



Not here:

 

RE: +1 on considering Ohms. , posted on December 31, 2020 at 15:01:44
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 520
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
>> "Why oh why to they list them as costing $xxxx, "each" I always find that disingenuous."

Nothing disingenuous about it. Home theater users often do not buy a single pair of speakers and hence the pricing makes it clear they can buy how ever many they need.

As long as the pricing on the web site clearly states it is for each item -- and Ohm's web site does -- I see no issue. I may be getting old and senile, but I can still multiply by two. ;-)

And I find Ohm's speakers quite moderately priced for what you get. They are a very good value IMO.

 

RE: +1 on considering Ohms. , posted on December 31, 2020 at 15:15:16
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 331
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
I suppose that's true. I'm never in the multi channel world so it doesn't cross my (narrow) mind. I barely have room for my two teeny Avalons let alone any others.

Their website does automatically fill in 2 to "add to cart" though.

 

RE: +1 on considering Ohms. , posted on December 31, 2020 at 15:23:45
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 520
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
And, when you look at your cart, the pricing correctly reflects the two units. And if you change the speaker count, the price automatically updates. Seems pretty clean to me.

 

RE: +1 on considering Ohms. , posted on January 1, 2021 at 07:00:14
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9334
Joined: September 24, 1999
I'll also recommend Ohms here. While I haven't tried it, I would bet they would be great in a HT.
Jack

 

KEF LS50s have great off axis response.., posted on January 1, 2021 at 17:52:39
samoore
Audiophile

Posts: 294
Joined: December 22, 1999
to my ears and Stereophile measurements confirmed it. I have the LS50 Wireless II in my TV room and they sound amazing for $2500 all in one package.
Remember, it's all about the music.

 

RE: Here's a photo , posted on January 1, 2021 at 20:44:24
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 3734
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
They appear omni because of the round shape and down firing woofer/mid. But the upper mids and treble are handled by front firing conventional drivers and will probably have fair off axis response but nothing special.

 

it's too bad with the Sanders narrow dispersion, posted on January 2, 2021 at 12:35:58
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 1828
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009


Because in that middle spot, they're the best sound reproduction I've ever heard.

 

Just get an amp with a mono button., posted on January 2, 2021 at 14:49:21
ppopp
Audiophile

Posts: 2911
Location: OR
Joined: October 10, 2002
Makes life a lot easier if you have to sit off-axis.

 

Controlled-pattern speakers, cross-firing, posted on January 16, 2021 at 23:50:49
Duke
Dealer

Posts: 4417
Location: Princeton, Texas
Joined: March 31, 2000
The ear localizes sound by two mechanisms: Arrival Time, and Intensity.

With conventional speakers set up normally (some toe-in), for a listener along the centerline, Arrival Time and Intensity are the same for both speakers.

If the listener moves off to one side, the near speaker "wins" both Arrival Time AND Intensity, as the listener is more on-axis of the near speaker and more off-axis of the far speaker. The higher frequencies will be stronger on-axis and they convey most of the localization cues. The image will tend to shift strongly towards the near speaker.

With Omnis, if the listener is off to one side, the near speaker "wins" Arrival Time, and "wins" Intensity by a small margin. The image will be pulled towards the near speaker some but not too bad.

With Cross-firing controlled-pattern speakers, the speakers are strongly toed-in such that their axes criss-cross in front of the listening area. So the off-centerline listener is far off-axis of the near speaker, but well on-axis of the far speaker. Therefore the near speaker "wins" Arrival Time BUT the FAR speaker "wins" Intensity! The two localization mechanisms more or less offset one another and you end up with an enjoyable soundstage and good spread of the instruments even from well off of the centerline.

The SECRET to this is, the near speaker's response must fall of SMOOTHLY and RAPIDLY as you move off-axis. If both criteria are not met, it will not work very well.

The first photo at the link below shows a setup like this, take a look and what I'm talking about will make sense. This is from T.H.E. Show 2019. Listeners said that the soundstage held up well from where the photo was taken. Disclaimer: The speakers in the photo are my design, but the same thing can be done with other controlled-pattern speakers.

Credit to Earl Geddes for this idea. It is unorthodox but it works well. Some people who have tried this for home theater have sold their center channel speakers because they prefer just the left and right speakers in phantom center mode.

Duke


Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.

 

RE: Controlled-pattern speakers, cross-firing, posted on January 17, 2021 at 10:49:31
Don Reid
Audiophile

Posts: 566
Location: Rural NW Georgia
Joined: February 2, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
April 1, 2010
Flat panel electrostatics like the Sanders pair shown or Acoustat 2=2s I used to own do have a very narrow sweet spot, but when you are in that sweet spot they image like a View Master.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.

 

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