What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt)

REL subs are great for music, and I understand Rythmik subs are too. nt, posted on October 30, 2020 at 10:23:36
JoshT Audiophile Posts: 6622 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Joined: July 4, 2000	I can attest to the REL T series. ___ "If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

RE: REL subs are great for music, and I understand Rythmik subs are too. nt, posted on October 30, 2020 at 10:35:23
G Squared Audiophile Posts: 8475 Location: Washington, DC Metro Area Joined: November 16, 2004 Contributor Since: May 23, 2023	Rythmic 15 in sealed here. Extremely good for music. Integrates well with my little maggies. Quite a challenge for a sub. Gsquared

RE: REL subs are great for music, and I understand Rythmik subs are too. nt, posted on October 30, 2020 at 11:42:09
John Elison Audiophile Posts: 23900 Location: Central Kentucky Joined: December 20, 2000 Contributor Since: January 29, 2004	I'm sure REL subs are fantastic, but they're also very expensive. I paid $2200 for a pair of Rythmik Signature Servo Subs and they are absolutely superb. I've never owned REL subs but I'm so happy with Rythmik that I can't stop listening. Buying the Rythmik Signature Servo Subs was one of my best decisions. They integrate perfectly with my Thiel CS3.7 speakers and they sound ever so musical.

I'm definitely going to try Rythmik subs if I ever have to replace my RELs, posted on October 30, 2020 at 13:03:47

JoshT
Audiophile

Posts: 6622
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Joined: July 4, 2000

I've yet to hear anything but praise for them, or at least for their higher end models.

The REL T series aren't very expensive actually, and are sometimes discounted, but there's no doubt the Rythmik choices are priced even lower.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on October 30, 2020 at 14:35:48
svisner Audiophile Posts: 1162 Joined: March 30, 2002	I have two of these, 15 inch (for main system) and 8 inch (for use with Maggie's on my desktop system). Not "audiophile approved," necessarily, but I have been very pleased. They integrate well, and they are certainly a good value.

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on October 30, 2020 at 18:13:17
Ozzy Audiophile Posts: 7588 Joined: September 21, 1999	Two of what? Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you. - Winston Churchill

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on October 30, 2020 at 22:01:38
johntoste Audiophile Posts: 459 Location: New England Joined: March 20, 2004	I expect that everyone will promote what they own. I won't be the exception: JL Audio, whichever model seems appropriate. I have a pair of the e110s and I love them. I have extensive experience with REL and I think they're very good. I've never heard the Rhythmic or SVS nor have I ever heard a bad word about them. Good luck!

I'd love to have JL Audio subs!, posted on October 31, 2020 at 11:51:09
JoshT Audiophile Posts: 6622 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Joined: July 4, 2000	Or at least the opportunity to audition them. I've not heard one yet, but they appear to be the gold standard from what I've read. ___ "If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on October 31, 2020 at 12:11:43
svisner Audiophile Posts: 1162 Joined: March 30, 2002	Dayton Subs

What am I not understanding?, posted on October 31, 2020 at 16:03:31

2-ears
Audiophile

Posts: 240
Location: Orange County, CA
Joined: January 19, 2003

The fascination with subwoofers, especially for music (not HT), is not something I fully understand. Good floorstanding speakers should produce bass frequency to something less than 40Hz; bookshelf/standmount speakers somewhat above that threshold. Ideally a subwoofer adds value below the point where the main speakers trail off (yes/no?). 1/3 and 1/2 octaves below 40Hz are 31.7Hz, and 28.3Hz, respectively. Sure, there are low organ notes that go lower, but for the most part there isn't much musical content that you would be missing. Since subwoofers can be rather pricey, my question is, once you find a subwoofer that goes down below 30Hz, what are you getting for your money?

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on October 31, 2020 at 17:55:05
immatthewj	I bought a M&K about 25 years ago, & although it moves a lot of air, I always regretted not doing more shopping for something that I think would have been more musical. I auditioned a Velodyne & liked it, & I wish I would have bought it instead.

The Dayton subs are not bad..., posted on October 31, 2020 at 19:31:57
Rod M Web Geek Posts: 16242 Location: So. California Joined: March 1, 1999 Contributor Since: March 1, 1999	Quite the contrary, my son bought a 12" Dayton and it worked quite well with my Straight 8s. He's not using at his current place and I hooked it up with my Altec Model 19s and it sounds great once it's tweaked in. There's no EQ and remote like my Velodyne subs, but for the price, it's fantastic. -Rod

Down or front firing?, posted on October 31, 2020 at 19:42:59

Rod M
Web Geek

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Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
Since: March 1, 1999

I've had both and they're different. My Vandersteens were down firing and integrated perfectly and were absolutely musical. However, they didn't do impact for HT or even rock where the kick drum hits you in the chest. In my mind, the Vandersteens were a bit too polite. Whether that is typical of down firing subs may depend on how low your speakers go with authority.

I replaced them with Velodyne 15" subs with EQ and a remote and haven't looked back. They also go lower and are quite musical with a low bass line and can shake you off the couch when awakened during an action movie. Of course, Velodyne is out of that business, so I'm not much help.

-Rod

RE: Down or front firing?, posted on October 31, 2020 at 20:00:15
immatthewj	My M&K has one 12" down & one 12" front.

RE: The Dayton subs are not bad..., posted on October 31, 2020 at 20:54:48
svisner Audiophile Posts: 1162 Joined: March 30, 2002	Works well with mini Maggies and Wharfedales.

Most speaker manufacturers inflate the bass numbers..., posted on November 1, 2020 at 06:03:16

Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

My Joseph Audio 'Pulsar' stand mounts talk a good line in the brochure about playing 42 Hz and in truth I can even hear 40 Hz if I play a test signal.

But 6dB down is a LOT and the 'Pulsars' are 6dB down at about 40 Hz.

My horns are even worse. Folded bass bins do play 60 Hz and I can hear it but it's 9dB down compared to a 500 Hz test tone.

But I can enjoy music without a sub in both of my systems so have yet to spring for one.

With the nearest neighbors nearly 1000 ft away, might spring for a sub one day.

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on November 3, 2020 at 03:46:02
mondial Audiophile Posts: 891 Location: S.E. ASIA Joined: January 14, 2007	I'm very happy w/ my Velodyne ULD 18 series 2 . I use it in my home theater , not boomy because of it being a sealed cabinet design .

RE: I'm definitely going to try Rythmik subs if I ever have to replace my RELs, posted on November 3, 2020 at 13:15:19
lokie Audiophile Posts: 1988 Location: Georgia, USA Joined: January 28, 2003	I have infinite baffle (which I love) but if I couldn't do IB I would definitely look into Rythmik. The ultimate would be two Rythmiks up front and two small cheapo's in the back of the room out of phase.

The elephant in the room..., posted on November 3, 2020 at 16:01:14

Duke
Dealer

Posts: 4429
Location: Princeton, Texas
Joined: March 31, 2000

... IS the room.

Room interaction inevitably imposes a nasty peak-and-dip pattern on the output of any subwoofer. You can change the pattern by moving the sub and/or moving your listening position, but you cannot eliminate it by re-positioning alone.

EQ can smooth the response at the listening position, but at the same time it will almost always make the response worse elsewhere in the room (because elsewhere the EQ's boosts and cuts will no longer be aligned with the room-induced dips and peaks).

If the goal is smooth bass over a wide listening area, one approach which works well is to use multiple subwoofers asymmetrically distributed around the room. Each will have a different room-interaction peak-and-dip pattern, but the sum of these multiple dissimilar peak-and-dip patterns will be significantly smoother than any one alone. Obviously smaller subwoofers can be used because there are more of them.

Credit to Earl Geddes for this concept, which I use in one of my products with his permission.

Duke

Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.

RE: The elephant in the room..., posted on November 3, 2020 at 18:20:26
rivervalley817	'I use in one of my products' there's more than one, it's a swarm and I want some I just don't have anywhere to use them dammit with regards,

Down or front firing makes little or no difference , posted on November 4, 2020 at 10:11:36
3db Audiophile Posts: 1514 Joined: July 22, 2003	Bass is omni directional meaning it goes everywhere and it doesn't matter the direction of the source. The only thing that matters is that the listener position is not a null with respect to the sub's location in the room.

RE: What am I not understanding?, posted on November 4, 2020 at 10:19:08

3db
Audiophile

Posts: 1514
Joined: July 22, 2003

Good floorstanders that can do 30 Hz with authority are expensive. Unless you have full freedom to put the speakers and the listening position anywhere in the room, then placement may become a huge tradeoff as bass is room mode dependent. You may find the speakers anaemic in bass and that has everything to where in the room the speakers are (room modes) with respect to the listener position and not the bass capabilities of the speakers themselves.

A good subwoofer is much cheaper than good floorstanders and will do bass better than the speakers. A subwoofer can be placed independently from the speakers thus allowing a more even bass response than where the speakers are located. Thats the reason for subs in music.

RE: Down or front firing makes little or no difference , posted on November 4, 2020 at 10:35:46
rivervalley817	though that's true for frequency response, in my experience front firing subs are more impactful because they're moving air with more 'directivity' and pressurize a room with sound more effectively via less 'floor bounce' this works better for movies yet doesn't detract from music ... also IME of course the room layout and treatments, if any, will have a 'say' in this regards,

This., posted on November 4, 2020 at 11:54:33

Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12435
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002

What you say is, generally, true. However, the smoothness of their FR is greatly impacted by room modes and the placement of the speakers with respect to these modes. The effects extend up to the critical frequency which, in domestic rooms, is in the range from 200-400Hz.

However, most users position the speakers for general balance and for imaging/soundstage with reference to the MLP. A position chosen for that is highly unlikely to be good for minimizing the influence of modes. By transferring much of the LF to subs and placing them to minimize modal excitation can result in an overall improvement in low(ish) frequencies as well as, potentially, extending the FR.

RE: What am I not understanding?, posted on November 4, 2020 at 12:20:12
rivervalley817	yes indeed ... and so many use their gear for both HT and music it just makes sense to have the option in place regards,

RE: What am I not understanding?, posted on November 4, 2020 at 22:15:27

Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004

It's placement.

A floor stander with a decent sized woofer can put out almost as much bass as a sub... when it's in the corner. But, we put floorstanders where they image best, not where they excite the most bass modes. If fact, where speakers seem to image bass, they tend to produce unholy (hole filled) low bass.

Subs ameliorate this problem by permitting specialised placement for the lowest octaves while leaving the floor standers in the middle of the room where they image the best.

For those with speakers rammed in the corners, ignore this post.

Cheers,
Presto

Where have we seen this before? (NT), posted on November 5, 2020 at 05:23:45
Kal Rubinson Reviewer Posts: 12435 Location: New York Joined: June 5, 2002

I think it will make a difference depending on the floor composition., posted on November 5, 2020 at 16:58:22

alaskahiatt
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Posts: 7501
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Contributor
Since: November 1, 2005

My 10 inch down firing Hsu sub had more definition than my Velodyne down firing 15 inch sub. They were both installed at the same position, and the floor is carpeted wood on our second floor. All I could think of was the much higher pressure of the Velodyne on the wood floor might have excited the floor to oppose the Velodyne speaker vibrations.

I wish I had tried the Velodyne sitting on its side making it a front firing sub. It would look like a bear sitting on my living room floor, but I wouldn't mind if the sound was clearer and just as deep.

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on November 8, 2020 at 23:37:48
KanedaK Audiophile Posts: 2519 Location: Brussels Joined: April 27, 2010	I do like my Focal Electra SW900 - it looks great and sounds great, if you can find one second hand - it's an older model.

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on November 10, 2020 at 16:37:12
itolduso1000timesb4 Audiophile Posts: 235 Location: Canada Joined: March 7, 2018	Well music is sometimes boomy, what do you do then?

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on November 19, 2020 at 04:27:27
mikem Audiophile Posts: 170 Joined: September 23, 1999	Generally speaking... I find that a sealed sub, non ported works best with music.. Less boomy and more accurate.. I prefer a ported sub for HT, but for music a non ported sub worked best for me.. As others mentioned... the room is critical regardless of which sub is used..

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on November 21, 2020 at 18:41:59

jlhommedieu
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Posts: 8
Location: Ohio
Joined: October 30, 2011

I'm going to repeat part of what Kal said, for emphasis.

>...most users position the speakers for general balance and for imaging/soundstage with reference to the MLP. A position chosen for that is highly unlikely to be good for minimizing the influence of modes. By transferring much of the LF to subs and placing them to minimize modal excitation can result in an overall improvement in low(ish) frequencies as well as, potentially, extending the FR.>

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on November 21, 2020 at 18:50:04

jlhommedieu
Audiophile

Posts: 8
Location: Ohio
Joined: October 30, 2011

Someone asked about which type is better for music and why? The answer is "Sealed", not ported.

The reason is because a ported sub is basically wrong.

1. That port can only drone at one frequency, like when you blow across the open neck of a pop bottle. One note.

2. An electric bass can produce different notes. So can an upright acoustic bass. When playing a bass, one hand plucks while the fingers of the other hand choose a note. With a *sealed* subwoofer, you hear those *different* notes.

But with a ported subwoofer, you'd only hear that one drone. It's fine for the footsteps of a T-Rex but not for Jaco Pastorius, or Stanley Clarke, or Roger Waters, or Sting, or Primus.

RE: What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt), posted on December 1, 2020 at 19:25:58
JohnKutheRN Audiophile Posts: 529 Location: MO Joined: September 16, 2019	Yep! I have two Dayton 15" subs in a truck box and a 1000W Dayton sub amp and it rocks! John Kuthe...

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What are the best subwoofer makes for music, not boomy HT. (nt)

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