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Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio

162.104.240.122

Posted on March 22, 2017 at 19:23:44
rbogartr
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: north carolina
Joined: October 3, 2016
This was not my first purchase from Kevin Deal at Upscale audio. I am a entry level audiophile. My PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP and Dialogue Premium Preamplifier have given many hours of enjoyment. I have purchased well over 1K in tubes from Kevin. This purchase took me over the 10K mark with Upscale Audio. I am not a rookie to audio or tube amplification. I have had a successful tube amp repair and design shop since 1993.
My concern.
Here is the description of the Acoustic Zen Adagio from Upscale audio's website.
This pair of Adagio's from our demo room are also the last pair of Adagio's in our inventory. The Adagio is such a sweet sounding speaker and is perfect for those who really like to get inside the music. The pair we have are in the stunning Figure Red wood finish. The baffle style is the original (and better sounding) non-tapered baffle, as pictured. Price $2499.00 plus shipping
Ok.
I called Kevin and talked to him on the phone. I asked him if he would entertain an offer. I told him that I had seen the same speakers offered on Audiogon and Audioasylum for considerably less.
He said I am a retail store and back my products. He also said this and I quote " Those people are just guys in their underwear scratching their asses." I am a store.
I trusted the description of the speakers and I trusted Kevin.
Total price. $2839. $2499.00 plus $340.00 shipping to NC.
The speakers arrived and I couldn't wait to unpack them and hook them up. The packing was great. My anticipation was greater.
Left speaker Tweeter DOA. The same speaker had a shameful reject finish. The lacquer was so clouded you can hardly see the wood figure. The back of the speaker was loaded with black specks under the lacquer. These speakers are seconds, rejects. I sent Kevin Deal 4 emails referring to the fact that this really was a bad deal. It has been 3 days and no response.
On the other hand Robert Lee ( Owner of Acoustic Zen) responded immediately to my email asking for help with the DOA Tweeter. I sent it off next day air to him and today responded that it is on it's way back to me.
Somehow Kevin Deal's Train ran off the tracks so don't ask for your money back

 

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RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 22, 2017 at 19:43:58
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13966
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
The tweeter problem could have occured during shipping, so give the
vendor benefit of the doubt on that. As for the defective finish, that should have been disclosed to you by the vendor prior to sale. Presumably
it does not affect sound quality. However, vendor should be willing to
work with you to make things right; his failure to do so is not goot.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 22, 2017 at 19:49:05
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
Strange, Kevin's always been a pretty straight up guy. Didn't you see any pictures of the speakers before shipping?

I'm sure kevin knows a dead tweeter before he would have even bothered shipping those things. Very unlike him???

But here's my bit of advice. Keep in contact with Kevin. Keep it on a business but polite level. DON'T loose your head and do things out of impulse. Because that's when communication breaks down and ends. Be patient and work it out on a civil level. Remember you paid more from Kevin because there IS a guarantee

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 22, 2017 at 22:29:10
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
Thanks! for sharing- rbogartr

keep us posted on your situation.

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 23, 2017 at 04:03:59
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7583
Joined: September 21, 1999
Usually all you see is an online lovefest for Kevin Deal. My experience is more akin to yours.

A little over 20 years ago I ordered a pair of tubes from Upscale Audio. A couple of days later I called Kevin to get the tracking number. He says, "I am too busy trying to run a business to stop and look up a tracking number". He finally did give me the number, but his attitude was one of extreme annoyance.

Fast forward to about a month ago. Kevin had a used tube integrated amp on his website. I used the contact form on his website and made an offer on the amp. A week later when I still had no response I tried again. The next day I received a reply from someone other than Kevin telling me how busy they were, guy out sick, etc... I had already moved on by this time.

I guess I'm the outlier in the Upscale Audio business model......

Oz




Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 23, 2017 at 05:45:10
Not Yet There
Audiophile

Posts: 538
Joined: April 8, 2006
Did you try phoning Kevin and what was his response? I can only imagine how many emails he must receive.

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 23, 2017 at 06:04:25
collinslaw@fuse.net
Audiophile

Posts: 524
Location: Northern Kentucky
Joined: August 5, 2011
I am also interested. If Kevin really did reply as in your quote, it surely shows the frustration that someone who has invested a small fortune in their real store has for people that can sell with little or no investment. With that said, it is usually bad form for a professional to bad-mouth a competitor. Speaking as an old dude who has spent many a happy hour and dollar in real stores, I hate seeing this. This is basically how Walmart devistated small towns in the 90s and still does. But, I admit that it is our reality now, alas.
Tom Collins

 

Call him, posted on March 23, 2017 at 07:21:02
Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
  Since:
December 14, 2012
Yes he should have responded to your emails, but even if he did, email is a lousy tool for resolving a problem. Get him on the phone.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

 

By All Means Try and work it out Amicably, posted on March 23, 2017 at 07:50:45
jaynemo
Audiophile

Posts: 1881
Location: Connecticut
Joined: February 7, 2003
Over the phone and be patient. Misunderstandings do happen and people are busy.

However, did you purchase them with a credit card?

If all else fails, its easy, put a claim in to your credit card company, specify it was an internet sale and last but not least "Item received not as described". The credit card insurance carrier always favor the buyer, NOT the merchant. Sure the merchant can challenge it, however, if its deemed in your favor, the merchant is also fined for challenging the claim.

 

RE: By All Means Try and work it out Amicably, posted on March 23, 2017 at 07:55:24
BillH
Audiophile

Posts: 3913
Location: Baton Rouge
Joined: December 23, 1999
This wouldn't be the first snarky dealer anyone has ever encountered, but he owes you a response to your complaint and perhaps some $$$ consideration.
I would think the manufacturer has some concerns about this as well.
But, it's a two-way street, like most transactions.

 

RE: By All Means Try and work it out Amicably, posted on March 23, 2017 at 08:10:05
jaynemo
Audiophile

Posts: 1881
Location: Connecticut
Joined: February 7, 2003
I learned of the credit card "item not as described" from a local high end dealer, who was actually scammed with a internet sale of a high end CD player. The buyer maintained that the item was received in poor cosmetic condition, with functionality issues and NO apparent shipping damage based on the condition of the shipping box. The merchant knew quite well this was a false claim. However, his options were a complete refund, as the buyer demanded or challenge the claim. The credit card company stated it was in his own right to challenge the claim, however, if he lost, he would have to cover approximately $5,000 for the claim investigation. As the responsibility was on him to prove the buyer wrong, not vice versa. So either pay the refund, or pay the refund plus $5,000. So yes, its double edge sword!

 

+1 ..., posted on March 23, 2017 at 08:34:45
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13112
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since:
January 19, 2010
Working out problems is so much easier on the phone.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 23, 2017 at 10:52:48
rbogartr
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: north carolina
Joined: October 3, 2016
Kevin Deal left a VM and sent me an email today. He regretted the DOA Tweeter. He Stood by his claim that the Speakers were in beautiful condition. I emailed two photos to him showing that the speakers are not even the same color. One is that bright red clear finish you see in the ads, the other is a cloudy brownish finish with lacquer runs like when you hold a spray can too close and keep spraying. As far as the tweeter, that is not an issue. Robert Lee resolved that. I would post the pictures here but I do not know how. Anyway I am guessing this post is dead now, thanks for all your inputs. I can't wait to hear them when the tweeter arrives. You live and learn. I learned a lot on this purchase.

 

Let us know..., posted on March 23, 2017 at 11:47:14
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 1072
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
... if Kevin responds to your emailed photos and what he then says.

 

Here are pictures and information, posted on March 23, 2017 at 15:29:30
Kevin Deal
Dealer

Posts: 369
Joined: May 29, 2000



Three things I will cover:

We never got a manual, and I didn't even know they had one. Some speakers don't come with manuals, and I called Robert at Acoustic Zen to make sure one got sent out.

The tweeter we didn't check because we never used these speakers in the store that I recall. Acoustic Zen is sending a replacement, so I'm sorry for that problem and was not aware it existed.

The speakers were incredibly beautiful. The finish is the same as it was from the factory. In fact they were so good-looking the two girls that work here ooohed and aaahed. If he has an issue with the type of finish a speaker might have he shouldn't buy demos from across the country.

The listing on my website was a mistake at $2499. They were supposed to be $2999. But since the price was there I honored it anyway. The speakers, as evidenced here, have a warranty so $2499 was really a low price and I lost money on this transaction. The value isn't at issue here, but if you look to buy some the only ones for sale are on Ebay used, no warranty, with scratches for $2938.

My phone call with Richard was quite unusual, and I sensed this might happen. So I took pictures of the speakers as we inspected them before packing. You can see their beauty. They were regular A stock and Acoustic Zen will confirm that. If the finish has runs, which I didn't see, the manufacturer may have a comment on that. But I looked at these and didn't see it. As to a color difference, perhaps there is one but nobody here noticed it and I would not have shipped it had I seen it. Just to put this to bed I will give him a $200 refund

It would have been nice if he had called as the e-mail address he used is not always monitored as close as I like.

 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 23, 2017 at 16:12:37
rbogartr
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: north carolina
Joined: October 3, 2016



The speakers are different colors, You can see this in the first photo on the left. It is a milky cloudy faded finish. On a close up You can see what looks like someone used a spray can up close and the lacquer ran down. I am including a photo of the speakers in my living room. The beautiful clear red finish is perfect on the one on the left. The speaker on the right that came with a DOA tweeter's finish is faded, cloudy, and muddy brownish. Kevin just emailed me that he will credit me $200.00 if it makes me happy. No. I don't want his money. This deal is over. Just a giant appointment.





 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 23, 2017 at 16:26:19
stereo5
Audiophile

Posts: 1354
Location: New England
Joined: June 22, 2008
I am not seeing the cloudiness. I have found Kevin to be a delight on the phone and have made a few purchases from him. His offer to refund you 200.00 is more than fair IMHO. Since the speakers are under warranty, why not send them back to the manufacturer to see what they say about the finish?


"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."


 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 23, 2017 at 16:37:58
Posts: 1617
Location: South Central Coast, California
Joined: October 12, 2003
"Let's Make a Deal", "Deal or No Deal", "Deal of the Century", "Raw Deal", or "Just Deal", Mr. Deal? ;)

 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 23, 2017 at 17:10:20
The Dill
Audiophile

Posts: 2195
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: July 1, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
February 3, 2016
I see a very light white milky hue and a slightly different color of rbogartr's right speaker. The left one looks good.
If you look close at the first from the left of Deal's photos, I see the same difference.





 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 23, 2017 at 17:11:10
samac
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: midwest
Joined: August 28, 2004
Interesting. It's very easy to see in both Mr. deal's and rbogartr's pic. Also, in rbogartr's pic you can see the streaks/runs in the finish. Take a closer look. I bet you'll see it.

Cheers,

Scott

 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 23, 2017 at 17:30:07
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15486
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
Nice of Kevin to chime in here, proves that he is a stand-up guy.
I concur that there are (2) different finishes (for whatever reason) on these speakers. Certainly not brownish in any way, yes, to cloudy/milky dull appearance.

 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 23, 2017 at 17:46:10
rbogartr
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: north carolina
Joined: October 3, 2016



One last thing. The pictures Kevin posted I never saw until tonight. He did not send them to me. Second it is hard for me to capture the details on a Cell phone picture. In person it is shocking. Third, He never mentioned the appearance of the speakers in our" unusual Phone conversation". Ask your self, why then did he take pictures before he shipped them? No detail on the finish but oddly enough showing just enough to proof they do not match in color or quality. As far as why I gave up trying to contact him by phone, I left multiple messages for 2 days with two different folks at Upscale expressing that I wanted to place an order for the speakers. The told me I would need to talk to Kevin. He never returned my calls. I caught him at the end of the third day and that's when we had the "unusual phone conversation" in which he refereed to the members of this forum and those of Audiogon as Guys in their underwear scratching their asses. Now you have both sides of the story.












en

 

Are the serial numbers consecutive? (nt), posted on March 23, 2017 at 17:48:15
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3149
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since:
March 1, 2018
nt


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 23, 2017 at 21:00:18
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
As a retailer Kevin can only do so much. He can refund the entire amount, or provide an additional discount due to the issues. Kevin is just a retailer he cannot be expected to do more than he did. He wouldn't have more than one demo pair at special pricing so he can't replace them. The speakers finish is a manufacturing issue I would think. What did they say about that, I wonder? Kevin has always been fair to me.

 

I can see a slight difference in Kevin's pic to the far left...., posted on March 23, 2017 at 23:19:35
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4560
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
But give him a chance to try to make it right. Kevin has always been good when I have dealt with him.

One thing I wouldn't do is buy a speaker that is that much plus being second hand without seeing them in person or without very high quality pics.

As for Kevin not getting back to you. He is a very good at returning calls but is very busy and may not pickup when you call. It has happened to me but he did call back.

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 24, 2017 at 03:02:36
Terry
Audiophile

Posts: 1289
Joined: August 27, 2000
Putting aside Upscale's poor performance in this transaction, I wonder if Acoustic Zen might do something for you here. It is clear that these speakers are not a matched pair, as they are usually sold, and I believe you do have a valid argument that the cloudy speaker suffers from a manufacturing defect. Would the warranty apply in this case? Just wondering!
Terry

 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 24, 2017 at 03:18:55
BCR
Audiophile

Posts: 2442
Location: connecticut
Joined: April 7, 2009
Return them. Think of the resale value if you ever decide to sell them.You would take a big hit on mismatched speakers!

 

Another important question to consider..., posted on March 24, 2017 at 04:08:08
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7583
Joined: September 21, 1999
....how can a dealer take a pair of speakers in on trade and not at least give them a cursory listen to make sure everything works before sending them out the door? I'm sorry, but someone who has been in business as long as Kevin shouldn't make such a rookie mistake.

Even Audiogon ass scratchers know better.........


Oz



Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 24, 2017 at 06:17:51
The Dill
Audiophile

Posts: 2195
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: July 1, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
February 3, 2016
KD says: "The tweeter we didn't check because we never used these speakers in the store that I recall. If he has an issue with the type of finish a speaker might have he shouldn't buy demos from across the country."

Now if these where demos, nobody ever listened to them? Was it a static demo?

KD says: "The listing on my website was a mistake at $2499. They were supposed to be $2999. But since the price was there I honored it anyway. The speakers, as evidenced here, have a warranty so $2499 was really a low price and I lost money on this transaction."

Dealer discount is approx. 40 to 60% off, at least it was when I was in the business. Even at 40% off of the $2999 list, leaves a cost to Upscale of $1899 + shipping (not that much to ship within the same state) so there is no way he lost any money, he just didn't make as much as he wanted. By not taking care of this customer, he is loosing future sales. I bet the buyer could find a local shop that could repair the finish and match the colors at a decent price, Kevin should pay for that to avoid potential shipping damage and costs.

 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 24, 2017 at 07:17:14
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7583
Joined: September 21, 1999
I agree. I don't see any way he lost money on this deal. And in a previous post I pondered why he would even sell a speaker without checking it out first, that makes no sense at all.

Oz



Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

Other than a reflexion of your crotch, I ain't seein' much wrong..., posted on March 24, 2017 at 07:45:06
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
but here's what I would guess.

We have a house that's narrow and thee stories facing west with HUGE windows in front looking out to the ocean. If and when the sun comes out (and it often does in San Francisco, if only for an hour before sunset) it cooks the place. We bought cabinetry in the kitchen (which is in the front of the house) which is(was) bright red, much like those speaker WERE when new.

It took about a year for us to notice fading on the sides facing the front windows, and this with shades drawn in the afternoon and evening on most but not all days.

If these were in a showroom near a window during the time Upscale had them in inventory, that might explain the differences in color.

Just a thought.

Who knows?






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

Who bears the liability, posted on March 24, 2017 at 07:54:09
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
I usually agree with you but refinishing them???? My hobby is furniture builder. Refinishing them professionally would cost almost as much as the speakers.

I usually side with the sellers end since I dealt with the public, for what seemed like over 250 years. This is not going to end well on any level. Bad faith has been perceived by buyer and communication has broken down.

Just send back the speakers. Buyer sucks up the shipping cost so he can go on Audiogon and buy what he wants from the ass scratchers. The product worked after the tweeter issue - Bad Kevin!! Pictures were provided prior so buyer does have a percentage of liability. Seller has percentage of liability in not disclosing mismatched color tone to finish.

And Kevin SHOULD have known better to include working/tested but "AS IS"

 

RE: Other than a reflexion of your crotch, I ain't seein' much wrong..., posted on March 24, 2017 at 07:55:19
airtime
Audiophile

Posts: 11287
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 4, 2003
See if the fading is on one side or both.

My one speakers woofers faded that way.

 

RE: Who bears the liability, posted on March 24, 2017 at 08:35:23
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7583
Joined: September 21, 1999
"And Kevin SHOULD have known better to include working/tested but "AS IS"

It's hard to make that statement when you haven't even connected the speakers.

Oz




Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

Robert Lee is a mensch, posted on March 24, 2017 at 10:24:09
Jay Buridan
Audiophile

Posts: 10265
Location: Michigan
Joined: January 21, 2004
You should have called Kevin Deal first.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 24, 2017 at 10:59:39
AudioSoul
Audiophile

Posts: 4594
Location: north central AZ
Joined: July 9, 2005

The finish a manufacturing issue? Keven knew of this defect and did not disclose it. Therefore it is a retail issue...

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 24, 2017 at 12:03:34
Terry
Audiophile

Posts: 1289
Joined: August 27, 2000
I don't completely agree with you on this. The speaker that is cloudy and brown is definitely below this manufacture's usual standards and should have been rejected before going out to the dealer (I am assuming here that Upscale was not responsible for the defect observed in this speaker as some others have suggested). I believe that a reputable company, which I assume AZ is, should get involved to satisfy the customer.
Terry

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 24, 2017 at 12:08:37
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7583
Joined: September 21, 1999
It is entirely possible that this pair of speakers were originally sold as "seconds", not an uncommon practice for manufacturers. Then the obligation falls to the reseller, be it an individual or a retailer, to disclose that fact. And the price should reflect it.

Oz



Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

Very true, Oz! nt, posted on March 24, 2017 at 13:13:39
Posts: 1617
Location: South Central Coast, California
Joined: October 12, 2003
nt

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 24, 2017 at 14:09:36
noroom4squares
Audiophile

Posts: 111
Location: mid atlantic
Joined: December 19, 2010
send those back, that finish difference is terrible. you're never going to be able to enjoy them.

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 24, 2017 at 14:50:42
Judge
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: October 29, 2016
Sounds like Kevin was not very upfront about the condition of the finish on these speakers. If he thinks these are beautifully finished and the girls at the office loved them. Then I think Kevin and the girls need to have their eyes examined. It is very clear from the photos that these speakers do not match in color, and the finish is poor by any standards. Acoustic Zen would never allow that kind of workmanship to leave their factory unless they were seconds. I believe the one speaker is damaged by the sun. The runs in the finish I can't explain, but being seconds sure does ring true.
Kevin has almost always been a fair guy to deal with, but I personally have encountered him when he was less than cordial.....snarky if you will. He can also be a bit of a used car salesman and always says that they will take care of me. This incident gives me pause as to buying anything used from him.
Send them back, you will never be happy with them in the condition they are in now.
And as far as us ass scratchers, I say to you Kevin " smell my finger".

 

I agree! , posted on March 24, 2017 at 14:55:14
Terry
Audiophile

Posts: 1289
Joined: August 27, 2000
nt
Terry

 

RE: Here are pictures and information, posted on March 24, 2017 at 16:39:50
Wesley Miaw
Manufacturer

Posts: 45
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Joined: February 14, 2012
The MSRP for the Adagios is $4500 USD, not $3000. The Adagio Jrs are $3500 USD.

 

They are OLD... , posted on March 24, 2017 at 17:25:37
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
Likely sitting in the sun in a dealer show room for perhaps years, who knows?

Not even current model see statement from the original ad below:

"This pair of Adagio's from our demo room are also the last pair of Adagio's in our inventory. The Adagio is such a sweet sounding speaker and is perfect for those who really like to get inside the music. The pair we have are in the stunning Figure Red wood finish. The baffle style is the original..."

I'm guessing 'original' means an earlier model.

My guess is that they are faded and that would explain the differences in the appearance one to the other (one spent years with the sun shining on it?).

One can only guess, but that's my guess.






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: They are OLD... , posted on March 25, 2017 at 00:39:46
Bill Bond
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: June 7, 2015
I have not personally dealt with Mr Deal, however, like many successful biz people, I suspect that he can get a little 'full of himself'. One of the hardest things for people in sales to do is this simple thing......DISCLOSE. If Mr Deal had disclosed the fault in the finish to the buyer and given him the opportunity of agreeing to the fault ( at a price of course) or passing on the deal( pun intended), then Mr Deal would have been a lot more ethical, IMO. May or may not have made the sale, but would not have had to subsequently come on this forum and defend himself. Coming from the weak argument that he did and trying to justify his position seems to me to only make things worse. Would it have been so wrong of Mr. Deal to admit he tried to cover something up and got caught doing it....then to apologize and try and make his customer happy! Problem is that if he could comprehend this tactic, he wouldn't have done the deed in the first place.
Now here's the other side of the story, Mr. Deal sent out a pair of perfectly good speakers with no finish issues whatsoever...the speakers were subsequently damaged in shipping and/ or the OP is making up a story about the finish ( because he has an ulterior motive of some sort)...
One of the above scenarios is the case...Mr Deal believes it is the second point, Mr OP, believes it is the first...

Judges face this kind of dilemma daily.....
Which is why, IMO this kind of case should go exactly there (to court); and one party would ( hopefully) learn a distinct lesson.

 

RE: They are OLD... , posted on March 25, 2017 at 04:22:58
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7583
Joined: September 21, 1999
The pictures bear out the fact that the finish doesn't match. And this wasn't done during shipping unless someone opened the box and replaced a speaker with one with a poor finish.

As far as the tweeter being damaged during shipping, if someone at the store didn't even listen to the speakers (which has already been admitted), how can you even make that charge? Usually if there is a failed driver, the condition of the speaker, the box or both will bear this out.

Sorry, but this one stinks to high hell. Kevin should offer a full refund and take the speakers back. It's the only way to come out of this one with some integrity in tact.

Oz


Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: They are OLD... , posted on March 25, 2017 at 06:02:45
Judge
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: October 29, 2016
Kevin should offer to take the speakers back, and on his dime. That's why he said that the buyer was dealing with a business, not a bunch of ass scratchers. The guarantee was intended, so why not use it? Oh and by the way, it is us ass scratchers that buy New from people like Kevin and when we want to upgrade, we sell on eBay, AudioAsylum,Audiogon etc. then we buy new from the likes of Kevin. I see no reason to insult those of us that sell our used equipment just to make himself seem more reputable.

 

Agreed, Kevin should take them back, full refund including return shipping...., posted on March 25, 2017 at 07:38:38
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
and if he doesn't, he's just another 'ass scratcher'! :-)


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: They are OLD... , posted on March 25, 2017 at 07:48:04
Jeffrey Lee
Audiophile

Posts: 708
Location: Louisville
Joined: September 24, 2002
So in your world, a finish described as "stunning" by the seller but in fact is cloudy and studded with lacquered debris is perfectly reasonable. Because they're old. SMDH.

 

Richard has not responded to me. Let's get them back, posted on March 25, 2017 at 07:48:44
Kevin Deal
Dealer

Posts: 369
Joined: May 29, 2000
I don't have time to go through this thread. Very simply, several people looked at these speakers and did not see the difference in finish. If we had, I would have never let them leave. It would be a really dumb move.

Having said that, I don't doubt he sees it in brighter light than we had. Of course I will take them back. This isn't an issue. Or give him $300 credit as that's what it will cost to ship them back here. I also have another customer contact me and said he wants them which is a cheaper shipping solution for us.

I called Richard twice yesterday,and his voice mail did not answer. He could have simply called me from the beginning, as we have a toll-free number. He also does not respond to the e-mail I sent recently sent him.

I'm not monitoring this thread. He needs to simply e-mail me and I will send him a shipping label with my apologies.

 

RE: They are OLD... , posted on March 25, 2017 at 08:46:47
The Dill
Audiophile

Posts: 2195
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: July 1, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
February 3, 2016
Well, at the end of the day I think both parties could have handled it differently, however bottom line, the OP got a pair of excellent sounding speakers, used (demo is used), with a list price of $4500.00 for $2839.00 delivered. If Deal pays him $300.00 that brings it to $2539.00 delivered. Now, in a followup post by the OP he says (on AudiogoN): " I figure I paid about $500.00 too much for these speakers." At this point, they are only 200 bucks apart. Seems like a ballpark deal to me.

 

RE: Richard has not responded to me. Let's get them back, posted on March 25, 2017 at 10:10:14
Judge
Audiophile

Posts: 10
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: October 29, 2016
Now that's the Kevin Deal I have known. I am very sorry that this whole thing couldn't have been handled better by both parties. But Kevin has come through as I knew he eventually would. Like I said before, he has always been more than fair with me in all our transactions. As for being a little less than cordial at times, hey we all have bad days. But in the end Kevin has handled this thread like a gentleman. Upscale Audio and the staff are not a bunch of ass scratchers

 

RE: Richard has not responded to me. Let's get them back, posted on March 25, 2017 at 12:15:23
Not Yet There
Audiophile

Posts: 538
Joined: April 8, 2006
Kevin Deal's second post should have been his first.

 

RE: Richard has not responded to me. Let's get them back, posted on March 25, 2017 at 13:06:41
Bill Bond
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: June 7, 2015
A smart move by Mr.Deal. However, like you said, the last post should have been his first post. Too bad that the reality of the situation dawned on him so late, but I guess better late than never, LOL,
BTW, let's now give him some slack, as I believe he has had some personal issues that he has dealt with in the past. Perhaps Mr. Deal can now begin to comprehend that one's expressions and personality can reflect badly on oneself, leading to undesirable consequences. We all have to think about these issues....only some more than others!

 

RE: They are OLD... , posted on March 26, 2017 at 10:46:18
Presto
Audiophile

Posts: 5957
Location: Canada
Joined: November 10, 2004
Well, there is little incentive to take things in on trade when then internet is there to help people expose a product to a wide group of potential buyers.

Why would I hand over something I used for a few years (and kept in showroom condition) for 50-cents on the dollar knowing it will be re-sold for 75 to 80 cents on the dollar?

Same with vehicles. The "trade in value" is usually a big joke.

I've sold lots of stuff used. I advertise it honestly and ensure it is working 100% without any band-aid repairs. I've never had a problem.

 

RE: Richard has not responded to me. Let's get them back, posted on March 28, 2017 at 06:04:10
miner42
Audiophile

Posts: 473
Location: Texas
Joined: April 28, 2007
Kevin is trying to make the buyer happy/content yet buyer is not helping by not conversing with him directly. I have had a few deals with Kevin, and will again. I have always enjoyed talking to him. When I had an issue with a Manley product he took matters in his own hands and took care of all issues, plus threw in an extra set of tubes. I will buy from Upscale Audio, again.

 

RE: Richard has not responded to me. Let's get them back, posted on March 28, 2017 at 10:27:36
Not Yet There
Audiophile

Posts: 538
Joined: April 8, 2006
I am not discounting your experience, but the issue is that Kevin's attitude/behavior or whatever you want to call it is unpredictable and inconsistent. For a potential new customer, why take the chance.

 

RE: Richard has not responded to me. Let's get them back, posted on March 28, 2017 at 14:51:05
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 3149
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Contributor
  Since:
March 1, 2018
"This purchase took me over the 10K mark with Upscale Audio."

The OP has dealt with Upscale Audio before, but from his explanation of being a tube amp repair shop, I guess he mainly purchased tubes. He goes on to say that he is a novice audiophile, so yeah, maybe he never ventured into this territory before, and is a potential audio as opposed to parts only customer.

(Edit. Only about 1K was tubes. He mentions some equipment. Assuming that was from Upscale?)

Hope this ends well for everyone.

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

RE: He didn't check if speakers were actually working? Cmon now! nt, posted on March 28, 2017 at 17:24:05
nt

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on March 30, 2017 at 09:19:00
Douger
Audiophile

Posts: 745
Location: Nebraska
Joined: January 2, 2001
I have purchased some equipment and tubes from Kevin and have never had
an unsatisfactory situation. My experience is that he resolves situations
very fairly if given a chance.

 

Kevin Deal Is Always Great To Work With, Always Fair, posted on April 7, 2017 at 20:59:50
Joe Backer
Audiophile

Posts: 1033
Joined: July 10, 2011
I'm putting this in the subject line because people only read headlines these days. I have had bunch of transactions with Kevin and they've always been great. I had a problem with someting once, not his fault, but mine, and we resolved it easily and equitably.

People who take to the public to air grievances without having first picked up the phone to give the retailer/seller a chance to work out a problem are only looking to see how many reponses their post will get. Not a very honorable way to be.

 

same here--never had trouble with Upscale Audio*, posted on April 7, 2017 at 21:09:38
agattu
Audiophile

Posts: 606
Location: NW Washington & Southcentral Alaska
Joined: March 27, 2005
*

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on April 8, 2017 at 14:36:16
FSonicSmith
Audiophile

Posts: 528
Location: Midwest
Joined: February 18, 2009
I am the original owner of a pair of these speakers, same color. They've been my main speakers for 5 years replacing B&W 805's and I'm happy with them.I understand the customer's dissatisfaction but also understand how this [innocently] happened. The Adagio's are fine sounding speakers but c'mon, Acoustic Zen has never claimed to be a Scandinavian company like Dynaudio or to source Scandinavian or artisan built-in-house cabinets like Devore and they are priced accordingly. Try buying an unused pair of demo Devore Orangutan 0/93's for $2500! The Adagio's are built from rather inexpensive components including the Chinese-sourced boxes. Frankly, it always surprised me that Kevin and Galen Carrol ever carried these. Sure they look sharp from a distance but one peek inside the transmission line port shows crude joinery-at least by top Scandinavian standards. The same ribbon tweeter can be purchased from Dayton Audio for $50 and I bet the mid-woofers are sourced at maybe $100. Mr. Lee assembles these in a warehouse in California. The crossover is fairly simple/inexpensive too. So to get to my point, I bet Kevin never viewed the Adagio as anything other than a decent speaker for the price and a great speaker for the profit margin. So why do I own them? Well they are a huge bang for the buck speaker at $3,500 or even $3000-the price they were widely available at brand new back when I bought mine. Mr. Lee designed a fantastic loudspeaker given the size, weight, complexity (transmission line), and overall SQ. And they are tube friendly.
Mr. Deal has offered to take them back and if you were expecting perfect audio-jewelry at that price-point you should. But breaking news-you will need to settle for a much smaller speaker that likely will not go as deep or be as dynamic/big-sounding if you want artisinal boxes for this price. I have to wonder-did you even set these up with some time invested in ideal positioning, take a deep breath, and audition them?

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on April 8, 2017 at 17:25:20
Not Yet There
Audiophile

Posts: 538
Joined: April 8, 2006
Hey FSonicSmith, do your Adadio speaker have a mismatched finish like the OP's? One speaker bright and shinny with the other a cloudy and dull? If not, I am not sure of the point you are trying to make.

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on April 9, 2017 at 08:34:12
FSonicSmith
Audiophile

Posts: 528
Location: Midwest
Joined: February 18, 2009
Well, then I would say that you picked a most-appropriate user-name. Perhaps so many people told you that you "not quite there" that you adopted it?
OK, no need to attack you. My point-which I think was quite clear-is that the Adagio's are constructed from pedestrian components but have good bordering on great sound quality. They are a great QPR loudspeaker for those that want an easy to drive large speaker that can deliver decent bass with low distortion. They are not audio-jewelry. They are more Dynaco than Dynaudio. OK, I have no doubt that one went over your head too.
Lastly, I SAID the OP had a valid gripe at the outset and I said that I could see how this clash between retailer and customer happened. No, I would not be very happy with mismatched colors. I happen to agree with the others who remarked that most likely it got sun damage from sitting near a window.

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on April 9, 2017 at 17:49:05
Not Yet There
Audiophile

Posts: 538
Joined: April 8, 2006
FSonicSmith, all you are doing is running off your mouth and going off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. No need to slag the OP speakers by saying that they are pedestrian in their construction etc. No one compared the Agagio's finish to other manufactures, therefore, why make the point. Instead of "speculating" just address the facts.

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on April 10, 2017 at 07:46:10
FSonicSmith
Audiophile

Posts: 528
Location: Midwest
Joined: February 18, 2009
Nice. Your choice of words reminds me of the hillbillys in Deliverance. "Quit runnin' yer mouth son before I whup yer ass". Are you a hillbilly Not There Yet?

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on April 10, 2017 at 10:06:28
Not Yet There
Audiophile

Posts: 538
Joined: April 8, 2006
@FSonicSmith, aren't you the guy who installed his tonearm finger lift pointing towards the platter spindle..LOL!!

You really shouldn't be giving advice, but then again, you really aren't giving advice but merely trolling.

Got to go now, need to check on my opossum pie.

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on April 11, 2017 at 07:36:12
FSonicSmith
Audiophile

Posts: 528
Location: Midwest
Joined: February 18, 2009
Guilty as charged! I have made tons of boneheaded mistakes in audio and all other facets of life and you may also recall that I pointed out my mistake with the tonearm lift before anyone else did. In other threads I have described my ineptness at cartridge installation/tt set-up. But unlike you, I do my best to refrain from simply sniping at someone else's post and instead try to add something substantive or not post. I stand by my point that the Adagio's should be seen for what they are. You seem to ignore that I said that the OP had a valid complaint nonetheless. As an Adagio owner I am interested-I would love to hear an answer to my question to the OP; has he set them up and given them a listen or has he committed to returning them without an audition? If he is going to audition them, he needs to know that if really brand new driver-wise, they will sound like crap for 25-50 hours and then sound better and better for another 50 hours or so before plateauing. They should be set up on furniture sliders and moved around in small increments with tape applied to the floor as reference points (the Jim Smith method) and once the optimum speaker placement is determined, outriggers really improve things. Due to the height of these towers, setting them up so that they fire slightly downwards helps if the room is on the small side. But I am wasting keystrokes I think-it seems clear the OP regrets his purchase. I understand his POV.

 

RE: Very Bad purchase from upscale audio Acoustic Zen Adagio , posted on April 11, 2017 at 08:21:11
Not Yet There
Audiophile

Posts: 538
Joined: April 8, 2006
Just to let you know that Upscale Audio gave the OP the option of returning the speakers at their cost for a full refund or accept a $300 partial refund. The OP chose to keep the speakers and accept the $300. In a addition, AZ sent him a replacement driver at no charge.

 

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