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Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?

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Posted on June 4, 2022 at 03:29:00
Funky Bob
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Posts: 793
Joined: May 16, 2003
 I'm currently using Cary 300SEI amp and looking for upgrade to something lower powered driving high efficiency vintage Klipsch Heresy I alnico horn speakers. Which SET tube type and amp would you recommend as the next logical "step up" from 300B for an even more involving and refined presentation? Basically the next level of tube heaven. Thanks.

 

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RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on June 4, 2022 at 03:51:43
andy evans
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Posts: 4247
Joined: October 20, 2000
 I'm not familiar with the boutique 300b tubes, just the "cooking" EH ones and some cheaper Chinese ones. I find the 300b a little euphonic overall and prefer it into 5K.

I prefer the more focussed sound of the 2a3. Or alternatively the 6B4G, which I use in the form of the Svetlana 6C4C which is a very good tube supposedly modelled on the RCA 2a3. So that's my personal choice. I use normal 2-way speakers so I need a 2a3 at least.

For high sensitivity speakers you have 801A and then 45, 46 and 47. High NOS prices and you may need to build the amp yourself or have it built. And then the modern replica tubes from various boutique makers. Very specialised and pretty costly. If you don't want to throw money at this I'd stay with 2a3/6B4G. And of course the input section matters hugely - get that right and you have your "step up".

 

Agreed, posted on June 4, 2022 at 07:45:13
Jack G
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 I much prefer 2A3s to 300Bs. 801As are glorious. :-)
Jack

 

Agreed too, posted on June 4, 2022 at 12:39:19
lokie
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Posts: 1923
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 I agree with the above.

You should put in the caveat of more power or less power.

For the "more power" category I would look at the 211. The problem with 211's is that I dont think you can do 211's on the cheap. The only way to do this tube is with pricey tranny's.

I also think there are couple of 300B's that are not quire created equal.. for example Audio Note's new 300B looks very interesting and reports to solve the euphoric "problem".

 

I have a mess of 801A's, posted on June 4, 2022 at 13:06:01
Ivan303
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Posts: 46751
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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 but no idea what to do with them. Only need a couple watts what with 106db Edgar Horns.

Very happy with Doc Bottlehead's latest and greatest 2A3 monoblocks while running EML mesh 2A3's. Very clean, very quiet.

Yes, 300B can be 'colored', but it can be a pleasant color, at least in my experience.




"Reality cannot exist because it cannot keep up with the lies on the Internet."


 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on June 4, 2022 at 14:34:33
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 9740
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 You might want to examine 6V6 triode curves before making a final decision. It's not DHT, but it is exceedingly linear and very economical to build.



 

RE: Agreed, posted on June 4, 2022 at 16:50:02
Cut-Throat
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 Agreed on the 2A3s.....And I much prefer 45 Amplifiers to 2A3. You should hear them on Very Efficient Horn Speakers. :-)





 

the one everyone is afraid of, posted on June 4, 2022 at 19:03:14
elblanco
Audiophile

Posts: 3364
Joined: August 20, 2004
 the 50.

it always sounds correct, whatever that means.

 

Any production model to consider?, posted on June 5, 2022 at 06:43:02
Funky Bob
Audiophile

Posts: 793
Joined: May 16, 2003
 Looks like these very low powered SET amps are rare as hen's teeth. Not into DIY and prefer something that I can easily buy and sell on the used market. Thanks.

 

Here's one, posted on June 5, 2022 at 07:19:59
Cut-Throat
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 They have a few different models in 2a3 and 45

Triode Labs


Here's another... TAL will build SET amps of most any design. I had him build a pair of Jeff Korneff Clone 45 Monoblocks last year. They are superb! - He's got a Portfolio on his website of all of the various designs that he has built over the years.

Tube Audio Labs




 

Wavelength Audio, posted on June 5, 2022 at 07:34:15
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1303
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Gordon Rankin (one of the originalist SET amp builders) offers a commercial monoblock amp, the Corona, based around many of the low power triodes (50, 45, "others"). He's not a fan of the 2A3 however, but I'd bet he'd build one if you wanted it. I have a 20+ year old 300B integrated of his that is mothballed at this point, but it's a very solid build and sounds wonderful.

I have no idea what his current prices are ($$$ likely), website isn't the greatest, but he does respond quickly to emails. He's posted here several times (when he has the time) so you can do a search and get an idea of what he has to say about SETs and tubes.

Triode Labs (triodelab.com) also has several SET offerings as well that look nice although I have no experience with them. Really pretty slim pickin's on commercial SET amps these days.

Many more on here with much more experience than me, but mostly DIY suggestions whenever this topic comes up. I don't DIY either. Always wanted to try, but physical limitations exist that prevent me from being capable.

 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on June 5, 2022 at 07:39:18
rogerh113
Audiophile

Posts: 464
Location: San Francisco South Bay
Joined: October 20, 2014
 Likely your first step is to determine how much power you really need to drive your woofers, if you want to use a separate driver for the woofers, or if you don't care much about the bass side of things.

A small, full range driver (which usually does not do bass well) does not need a lot of power. Your large woofers do need power to perform properly with good bass control.

I would guess that your options are - 1) enjoy what you have, or experiment with other similar options in the mid to hf range; 2) get a dual power amp setup, and enjoy set at the top and mid, and ss or pp at the bottom end (more complicated); or 3) get a relatively high power set (like 805) that will put out 35 to 50 watts (probably minimum you realistically need).

For fun, you might want to borrow a mid powered push pull in the power range you reckon you need, and try it in your system. Focus on the bottom end, and see if you hear a difference. Likely that is what you are missing with your set amp. Then envision your set end top with the augmented bass. That might well provide some perspective on a way forward.

 

I would hold on to the Cary 300SEI for a bit, posted on June 5, 2022 at 17:47:49
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 5954
Joined: April 6, 2000
 Been through the 45, 2A3 shows, and contrary to popular beliefs, the steps tend to be more lateral, depending on implementation and chosen speakers.

Cary 300SEI is 6SN7->6SN7->300B, all cap-coupled, so I expect a significant SQ change with some of the better coupling caps (in two stages) and simple tube swaps, perhaps even the new-production WE300B or Takatsuki.

 

RE: I have a mess of 801A's, posted on June 6, 2022 at 06:21:57
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9667
Joined: September 24, 1999
 They are comparable to 10s. In fact, in my 10 SETs they were a direct replacement. In those amps, they put out 1 1/2 watts (though I think they can do more). Clean, and more linear than any 10s I've heard. They are, or at least used to be pretty cheap too. I've only heard the RCAs though. One of my all time favorite tubes. :-)
Jack

 

RE: I would hold on to the Cary 300SEI for a bit, posted on June 6, 2022 at 06:58:57
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4247
Joined: October 20, 2000
 "Cary is 6SN7->6SN7->300B, all cap-coupled, so I expect a significant SQ change with some of the better coupling caps (in two stages) and simple tube swaps, perhaps even the new-production WE300B or Takatsuki."

Yes, the 6SN7 can be found in some really good versions. Personally I like the angled plates best. I'd suggest Russian teflon coupling caps - FT-2 or FT-3 if you can find them outside Russia. And definitely DC Link cathode bypasses. Not too big in 40uF. Kemet, Vishay etc. These make a difference for sure. The combination should sound excellent - it's what I use myself and I'm very pleased indeed with the sound.

 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on June 6, 2022 at 10:46:40
Mick Wolfe
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Location: AZ
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Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 Having owned Heresy 3's for several years, I'd have to agreed somewhat. This not knowing how the 3's compare to the original, but I'd certainly consider moving up in power, not down. A good 845 amp (or even a decent 40 watt P-P amp) lets my 3's sing with ease on all genres. This in addition to providing excellent bass power and control.

 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on June 7, 2022 at 01:06:43
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15099
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Yeah it's tough a lot of folks go from 300B to 2a3 although I sorta feel it is about the quality of the transformers than just the tube type. The Meishu Tonmeister blew me away - the only 300B amp to ever make me want it over 2a3 (even more expensive 2a3).

Nevertheless, I am trying for a Jinro 211. Not because it has more power because I don't need the power but just because I think it sounds better (more complete) than 2a3 or 300b or 45 etc. But is very expensive - above that is the 212 but those are unobtanium priced and just too big and hot and sometimes overkill just bothers me - the 211 Jinro - love it every time I hear it. Can play all music. Probable is it costs more than a fully loaded Toyota Camry.

On the other hand - I don't need a car where I live - so...

 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on June 7, 2022 at 09:53:22
Funky Bob
Audiophile

Posts: 793
Joined: May 16, 2003
 How big is your listening room? Mine is only smallish 100 sq ft (10' x 10') and that's why I want to go down in power for further refinement, etc.

 

The little 304tl is pretty nice, posted on June 7, 2022 at 11:08:23
Chip647
Audiophile

Posts: 2514
Location: The South
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Winter amp

 

Here are my 45 Monoblocks ......................, posted on June 7, 2022 at 15:15:27
Cut-Throat
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  Since: May 16, 2021
 From Tube Audio Labs.... He can build you a pair of these! Jeff Korneff Design 45 MonoBlocks - Mirror Image with the Finest Components.









 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on June 7, 2022 at 15:53:19
Mick Wolfe
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  Since: September 4, 2000
 Well, since you've now mentioned the 10'x10' room, I can't see a lower powered amp solving anything. Coming from an experiment where I tried to cram my H3's into a similar 10'x 11' room, I can tell you the Heresy needs a bigger room to breathe and sound its best. If I were to spend money on anything, it would be for a speaker that's designed to work better in that small acoustic. The Heresy is just too energetic a speaker to perform its best in a 100 sq. ft. room. If you're looking for more refinement, I would retain your 300B amp and choose a different speaker.
If that option is off the table, room treatments may be the only other logical approach. They can certainly yield a more refined presentation if properly implemented.

 

James Burgess, posted on June 7, 2022 at 17:02:03
belyin
Audiophile

Posts: 1240
Location: New Orleans
Joined: November 1, 2003
 There are three James Burgess built SET amps offered on US Audio Mart: a 2A3, a 45/2A3, and a 47 (actually a pentode but can be switched to triode.) Disclaimer: I have no connection to or interest in these sales, but I do have a Burgess built JE Labs 76 full feature preamp--he does great work.

 

RE: Here are my 45 Monoblocks ......................, posted on June 7, 2022 at 20:25:03
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 3311
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 From 250 Hz up on 104db horns? It's not very comparable to most of the SET implementations.

 

Better Quality 300B or higher power tubes , posted on June 7, 2022 at 20:27:40
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 3311
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 You don't have speakers for less than 8w.

 

RE: Here are my 45 Monoblocks ......................, posted on June 8, 2022 at 01:28:18
Cut-Throat
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 Correction: --- I use 115db Horns. And All Oris Horns are Bi-Amped. And I believe Edgarhorns and Avantgarde Horn Systems are Bi-Amped as well.

Hardly, not comparable as you say. SET implementations are 'made' for Horn Systems IMO.





 

RE: Here are my 45 Monoblocks ......................, posted on June 8, 2022 at 05:56:20
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 3311
Joined: June 23, 2009
 I agree that SET'S are made for horn systems and I have no doubt that your 45 monos sound wonderful in your implementation. I only remarked ( clumsily admittedly) that somebody with Heresy like boxes sporting 12" or 15" with 93-96 dB efficiency will have very different results with such amplifier even in a small room. I'd rather recommend move into opposite direction, 300B PSE or big bottles or different set of speakers and bi- amplification

 

Indeed..., posted on June 8, 2022 at 06:09:59
Ivan303
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Posts: 46751
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
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One of two 304 TL monoblocks (small WE tube as driver) by Kevin Brooks shown above on bottom shelf. Heard these driving a 5 way Ale horn system at Kevin's place some 15 or so years ago and it really sounded nice.


"Reality cannot exist because it cannot keep up with the lies on the Internet."


 

RE: Here are my 45 Monoblocks ......................, posted on June 8, 2022 at 08:03:42
Cut-Throat
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Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
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  Since: May 16, 2021
 I don't disagree with that.... Although I have seen people with speakers in that sensitivity range use Korneff Amplifers in a small room and are completely satisfied with it. So, there are no Hard and Fast rules when it comes to this topic.... Individual Volume Tastes, Room Size etc. etc.

Inmate 'The Killer Piglet' comes to mind.... Korneff 45 Amps and Omega SAM speakers (94.5db)

Inmate The Killer Piglet System



 

RE: Here are my 45 Monoblocks ......................, posted on June 8, 2022 at 08:25:27
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 3311
Joined: June 23, 2009



I own Rehdeko RK-125-5s FR speakers. Kindy of chunky bastards with flat 8 Ohm impedance and 96 dB. Not much bass from 10" driver either and my 45 monos can't do it in 100 Sqft bedroom . 300B on the other hand can and very nicely so.
OT, but is the 6SN7 driver stage in your Corneff monos using both halves of the triode in parallel or just a single triode ?

 

RE: Here are my 45 Monoblocks ......................, posted on June 8, 2022 at 09:08:07
Cut-Throat
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 Not sure, but here is the Schematic from a Magazine Article that Jeff Korneff used to build his 45 amplifier. In his e-mail to me last year, he attached this article.







 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on June 9, 2022 at 07:06:01
rogerh113
Audiophile

Posts: 464
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 You are taking a look at two different things. Quality of sound and volume.

If you have too little power, then there will be no bass. If the amp has poor quality sound, it will sound bad. Driving large iron with small power will result in poor bass. Not sure how you get around that one.

Volume is a different issue, and the smaller room plays into that. If memory serves, Heresy are the smallest heritage speaker Klipsch makes - I was running a pair of Forte in a fairly small space with no issues.

Once you get the speaker to sound good, then you need to make sure it can sound like that at all volumes. One problem with low volumes is using the standard resistive dividing network for volume control. To 'turn down the volume' you dump your hard-won signal as heat into a resistor (as opposed to it going to your amp). Most volume pots are not linear, so when you are at 'half volume' you are dumping more than half your signal as heat.

If your low volume performance is poor, you might want to try a quality TVC (transformer volume control). Like in all things, getting a TVC with crappy transformers will likely not turn out well.

 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on June 9, 2022 at 10:45:07
Mick Wolfe
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 I agree with much of what you say, but neither the Heresy, or the Forte for that matter, will ever perform their best in a 100 sq. ft. room. They're just not designed for a tiny space. You can certainly achieve somewhat acceptable sound, but never optimal. As I've said, if the OP is resigned to his current set-up, room treatments are his best option. This especially if his goal is added refinement. Buying a lower power amp would just be an expensive move sideways that doesn't solve the core issue. This assuming of course he has a very competent 300B amp already.

 

This?, posted on June 9, 2022 at 11:19:47
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16701
Location: So. Cal.
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.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

or this?, posted on June 9, 2022 at 11:25:35
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16701
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002



.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

What load impedance? nt, posted on June 9, 2022 at 11:29:22
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 16701
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on June 13, 2022 at 20:43:06
Joe Backer
Audiophile

Posts: 1012
Joined: July 10, 2011
 Just a better 300B than the Cary. There are so many great ones out there depending on your budget. If you don't have a bunch to spend though on a Thomas Mayer amp or something of that ilk, the person that suggested WE or Takatsuki 300B tube upgrade has the right idea. Those tubes will substantially improve your sound and they last a long time as well so it's a good investment. Elrog or KR also.

 

RE: James Burgess, posted on June 30, 2022 at 09:47:21
GEO
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  Since: September 9, 2000
 That was my amp! The 45/183/VT52. I have a 183 now and a 801A.

 

RE: James Burgess, posted on July 17, 2022 at 08:55:45
sony6060
Audiophile

Posts: 1244
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 845 tube amp. Some state the 845 is superior to 211 amps.

 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on October 4, 2022 at 00:15:11
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2467
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 Heresys sound far better if you use 4 of them.

Stack one on top of the other. Series the two
electrically, use top-notch wire (a cheap, GREAT
wire would be silver-plated Mil-Spec. 12ga.).

You will now have all the bottom-end you need,
and can better feed the room at low volumes.

If set up right, this arrangement will work
well for your room size.

You can run LESS power (in your room) with 4 speakers
(due to much more-efficient coupling to the room)
than you had to use with only one pair of Heresys.

-Dennis-

 

RE: Which SET is next logical "step up" from 300B?, posted on October 7, 2022 at 04:36:15
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1923
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 110 db speakers is the next step up.

 

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